A word of warmth to the line organisers at Moz gigs

[Flax]

I'm gonna have to side with Kieran on this one. I don't think it's exactly correct to tell someone "No, that didn't happen" if they're explaining they got screwed over. Of course you're going to be defending it. I believe her. Honestly, why would someone lie about that? 'Cause that shit's happened to me before. And I hate to say it, but there are definitely cliques going on. Maybe it's just not something the person running the list can control, but most definitely people in LA have a tendency to jump in front of people.

You're right. It sucks. I got screwed over many times.
But instead of whining, I show up early and try to keep my spot.

Those who whine should either present a better solution or just shut up.

I'm pretty sure that those who arrived early are not whining.

And for Pomona specially, those who showed up on the day of the show, it would be too late to be on the rail anyway. Those who showed up on the day before and didn't know about the list probably have a serious perception problem, which would lead to people jumping in front of them anyway.

"whaaaaa? list? whaaaa? I've been here for 394857 hours"

 

[jamescagney]

I'm gonna have to side with Kieran on this one. I don't think it's exactly correct to tell someone "No, that didn't happen" if they're explaining they got screwed over. Of course you're going to be defending it. I believe her. Honestly, why would someone lie about that? 'Cause that shit's happened to me before. And I hate to say it, but there are definitely cliques going on. Maybe it's just not something the person running the list can control, but most definitely people in LA have a tendency to jump in front of people.

I think I can say that as I was in the queue there and heard most of what went on from the "list nazi." Read the post again. Kieran didn't say s/he got screwed or moved to the end of the line. S/he said s/he was harassed. What I observed was that most of the people complaining about the queue 1) were asked what time they arrived and 2) actually got in ahead of other people that arrived before them. I believe I saw them and their friends at a show the day before, and even if not, it's hard to believe they were unaware there's a list at most Morrissey shows. I know for a fact that I went around asking people who weren't aware of the list what time they had arrived and making sure they got added to the list in a fair order.

Regardless, I'm fairly certain their experience would have been even worse had there been no list. These people would have either had to stay there for many hours with no break, or would have been forced to the end of the line when they returned from break. Being unaware of the existence of a list is something that should only happen once to anyone if ever, it's not a recurring problem for anyone. If the choice is list or no list, I definitely choose list.

 

[AmeliaScoptophilia]

Well, I obviously can't vouch for whatever the situation was at Pomona, but I speak from experience when I say it's very easy to "overlook" line crashers for some people. Back at the Palladium, I was #20 on the list...however, when it came to show time, I somehow had 40 people in front of me. I whine because I DO get there early. I got there early and had people jump in front of me who WEREN'T there the whole time. I mean, I can understand bathroom/food breaks, but these people weren't even there when I got there until about an hour before doors.

So, be my guest and explain that to me. I'd say my "whining" is legit. So honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened at Pomona. 'Cause that's the beauty of LA fans.

 

[AmeliaScoptophilia]

And by the way, not meaning to start any drama or anything. I think list is better than no list. I'm just saying it's not always fair and the list doesn't always work.

 

[jamescagney]

Well, I obviously can't vouch for whatever the situation was at Pomona, but I speak from experience when I say it's very easy to "overlook" line crashers for some people. Back at the Palladium, I was #20 on the list...however, when it came to show time, I somehow had 40 people in front of me. I whine because I DO get there early. I got there early and had people jump in front of me who WEREN'T there the whole time. I mean, I can understand bathroom/food breaks, but these people weren't even there when I got there until about an hour before doors.

So, be my guest and explain that to me. I'd say my "whining" is legit. So honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened at Pomona. 'Cause that's the beauty of LA fans.

I totally agree with you that the list is no guarantee, and it's frustrating when people don't respect it. That's why I was really glad the list nazi at Pomona wasn't afraid to get involved on our behalf and see if maybe people weren't where they should be. Some people will always cut the line (whether or not there is a list), and some people will end up being further away than they should be. The list merely gives you a means to try to objectively identify and address some of the people who aren't where they should be.

 

[Flax]

Well, I obviously can't vouch for whatever the situation was at Pomona, but I speak from experience when I say it's very easy to "overlook" line crashers for some people. Back at the Palladium, I was #20 on the list...however, when it came to show time, I somehow had 40 people in front of me. I whine because I DO get there early. I got there early and had people jump in front of me who WEREN'T there the whole time. I mean, I can understand bathroom/food breaks, but these people weren't even there when I got there until about an hour before doors.

So, be my guest and explain that to me. I'd say my "whining" is legit. So honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened at Pomona. 'Cause that's the beauty of LA fans.

Amelia, I didn't mean that you are whining.
I am just trying to say that if the list weren't there, it would be much worse.

Trust me, 1 hour before the doors opened there were people cutting in front of me. And I am responsible for pointing the finger at their face and saying out loud that they are not getting in before me.

That will happen with or without list. Without a list, much more likely to happen though.

So I think that in this case, it's your responsibility to keep watching those 19 people in front of you and make sure those are the only people that get in before you get in.

Pomona was a mess, but not because of the people in line. It was the venue that screwed everybody over.

I got screwed there and that's because I was watching the queue like a hawk and kicking people out of the queue the whole time.

I have to say the list didn't work there because of the staff, but without the list, it would have been MUCH worse.

 

[Flax]

And by the way, not meaning to start any drama or anything. I think list is better than no list. I'm just saying it's not always fair and the list doesn't always work.

Oh, by the way, I think I ended up right in front of you and sort of helped you get on stage

 

[Mel_Torment]

Oh, by the way, I think I ended up right in front of you and sort of helped you get on stage

It was so, because I know what the both of you look like.

Yay for civil disagreement and debate!

 

[AmeliaScoptophilia]

Oh, by the way, I think I ended up right in front of you and sort of helped you get on stage

Yaaaay! You were awesome =). You and yer friend both made it super extra enjoyable for me.

Totally. I agree that the list is better than no list, I was just saying that it doesn't always work. I wasn't there, so I didn't know how Pomona went, I was just sayin' my experience with the Palladium. And I got screwed over by stupid venue crap in New Mexico; they let in the 21+ ers and I got left behind...sucked big time.
I'm a pretty passive person, so I guess it's my fault that people cut in front of me back then...but this year, it ain't gonna happen! But I applaude you for putting people in their place =).

 

[suparni]

While I am not against the list, I don't consider it whining to voice your frustration with an experience. Oftentimes linecrashers show up in the exciting rush just before the doors open. Many times people who have not been to shows before, or who have not been in a long time and (falsely) think that things are less insane, do not realize what has happened until its too late. I think that voicing your experience is very helpful as people watching the tour section have a heads up on whats going on and what to expect.

At least the 2007 fiasco after NY raised the awareness of other people going to see Moz who may have fallen victim to those people who were sleeping in their hotel room until a half hour before the show. It was too late for those of us who were waiting and wondering why we got screwed and why a certain clique was up front every show... but the discussion on it raised awareness and ended this selfish, immature, ugly abuse.

For the most part the list is very helpful - most of us are willing to endure the long, oftentimes cold hours on concrete... and if you are not willing - then you should not be up front... and the screwed have every right to explain and point out what happened... so as to raise awareness around the abuse and put it to a halt.

I am not trying to bring anarchy or end the list... I am just saying that there is a huge difference between voicing frustration about this system and whining... whining is what the people who complain about the setlist do.

 

[Sharron Needles]

At least the 2007 fiasco after NY raised the awareness...

Come on, change the record already! 2007 was a few years ago. It's over. It didn't raise awareness of anything other than the fact Morrissey fans love drama, which has been a fact since the beginning of time. THIS is part of the reason I couldn't be bothered to queue for the Hammerstein gigs (or for many of the gigs in the last few years tbh). I mean, it's still being moaned about over two years later! The drama in New York seemed far worse than any of the LA gigs even. The fact is though, there's always going to be cliques, whether you or I like it or not, and it's just something that has to be dealt with. It is shitty having to wait all day, then have loads of people cut in front of you, have your door opened later, etc etc., but at the end of the day what comes around goes around, and you gotta leave it at that.

 

[Skinner]

I think suparni's points in the above post are valid and I agree. As soon as this thread started, even though it was talking about the most recent tour/queues/lists etc, I knew not everyone would agree and not everyone would instantly recall fond or recent memories of queues/lists etc.

The list is great for some, and meaningless for others. Yes people are going to think of NY drama of 2007, bc that was some serious drama. Yeah it was discussed at l-e-n-g-t-h on this board, but when threads like this pop up, of course it will be mentioned. There is no getting around that.

I say, if you honestly got dicked over by someone(s) (and I think a large number of people have been over the years), why not talk about it here? Where is there better to talk about it?

In theory the list is a great tool to use. When everyone is on the list, and keeps their butt in place for a reasonable amount of time and does not abuse the list or their group holding their place etc, it is a great thing. But when you try to use the list as your justification for getting back in line with the other 15 people from "your party" ( ) it's really not the way to go about things. Don't try to pull any shit or dick others over on account of the fact that you and all your friends are bat shit crazy.

Just saying, js.

 

[suparni]

I think suparni's points in the above post are valid and I agree.

Thanks Skinner. And Sharron Needles... I am referencing something that was already brought up here; I am not going into the drama or replaying any record, I am referencing an incident which still applies to the current situation. If you don't like it, skip over it. And it did raise awareness for me and for others, I saw it was a trend and I learned to raise my awareness (and unfortunately defensiveness) seeing the same thing happened to many people. So deal with it... or just don't read my posts. Very simple. The ignore feature exists for a good reason, if you don't like my posts - use it.

 

[Sharron Needles]

You know what? You take things way too personally.

 

[suparni]

You know what? You take things way too personally.

I did not take it personally when people jumped the line in NY, I took it as generally unfair for many people.

There have been other instances where I took things personally... but I will refrain from "playing that record again" in hopes that certain thugs will keep their testosterone from getting the better of them in the future.

I just think its fine to call out bullies and line cliques... you disagree... we both have the right to voice our opinion.

In the end everyone must fend for themselves and the list does what it can to make things more comfortable. It does, however, suck that one must be on guard and suspicious rather than relaxed and trusting just because of a few people thinking they are entitled... I think most people can agree about that.

 

[I am a Ghost]

I thought all Americans were polite...

 

[Sharron Needles]

I just think its fine to call out bullies and line cliques... you disagree... we both have the right to voice our opinion.

I never said that, read back. What I said is that unfortunately, that's just the way it is. You said that you think it's fine to call to people out, which I know that you have done in the past, but if you are gonna do that, you should also be able to take a little bit of criticism, which I don't really feel that I was criticizing you personally in this case, but whatever. You seem to enjoy confrontation, and I'm not talking about this thread, but "others" in the past, and when someone confronts you with something in their reply, your defensiveness kicks into overdrive.

 

[suparni]

I never said that, read back. What I said is that unfortunately, that's just the way it is. You said that you think it's fine to call to people out, which I know that you have done in the past, but if you are gonna do that, you should also be able to take a little bit of criticism, which I don't really feel that I was criticizing you personally in this case, but whatever. You seem to enjoy confrontation, and I'm not talking about this thread, but "others" in the past, and when someone confronts you with something in their reply, your defensiveness kicks into overdrive.

Well we do agree that unfortunately, that's just the way it is... as is the case with many things.

Yes, I have confronted people I found to be the most offensive, and also one who was threatening violence at a show in my hometown... I can let that go - its done. At the time I was angry and defensive. When a very large person physically threatens you for absolutely no reason other than you have not been on the whole tour and you are on the rail, defensiveness tends to happen.

As for your analysis of my psychological and emotional makeup, thanks for the insight - I do not disagree with you. Unfortunately, I am probably a bit too old to be waiting out on concrete for extended periods of time and after a few days of this, my weakest links start to bend and disintegrate - my worst traits tend to come out as I am often sick and always tired after these shows.

But I like to think of life as a journey where most of us are learning from experiences and striving to better ourselves. I am aware that I get confrontational and defensive when I feel wronged after such an ordeal to see Morrissey, you are right and I am sure I can do more to exercise awareness and restraint when these things arise. I will try.

As ugly as it has gotten, I tend to think that the people on line do have something in common and I can compare it to some kind of war veterans (of life and line.) There is (at the very least) a respect for one anothers sensitivity and taste in music, and shared recognition of whatever it is that draws us to Morrissey. I can let things go, and I can take criticism. I do voice my opinion and oftentimes I am defensive after these situations we endure to see Morrissey - as I am sure many are. But in a way I am glad I speak my mind because it is better than letting the frustration and anger boil under the surface - and it also exposes my psychological tendencies - which it seems I need to live out once in a while if I am going to have a good look at and understanding of them - which is the only way I have ever really been able to change myself... by living it out and having a good look.

I think you are right... and I am not ashamed about my defensive nature, I can only say with awareness perhaps I can change it. I would, however, be ashamed if I were repressive, stagnant, and unable to grow/change.

I wish everyone the best of times seeing Morrissey... and I feel absolutely no shame about defending my spot on line or talking back to those who threaten me. Perhaps there are better ways to go about those things... I will try to find out.

Thanks again Sharron for your psychological analysis.

 

[ForgetMe]

As far as I can remember, there was only one person on the list who brought friends in who didn't stay all night and they were nearer to the back. Unfortunate, but for the most part, the line crashers were people who came in the morning or afternoon of the show, or even later, and didn't like the list and were upset with people who had queued there overnight. The "line nazi" only confronted people who everyone thought were not in their right place in line, and when they wouldn't move, there was no physical action taken. It was just stated to everyone that so and so feels entitled to come later in the day and cut people who sat through the cold and rain overnight. Essentially just making them feel bad. The "list nazi" did a great job taking care of the people who queued for a long time as well as people who didn't know about the list, but still got there at an early time. I'd like to give my warm thanks.

 

[jamescagney]

As far as I can remember, there was only one person on the list who brought friends in who didn't stay all night and they were nearer to the back. Unfortunate, but for the most part, the line crashers were people who came in the morning or afternoon of the show, or even later, and didn't like the list and were upset with people who had queued there overnight. The "line nazi" only confronted people who everyone thought were not in their right place in line, and when they wouldn't move, there was no physical action taken. It was just stated to everyone that so and so feels entitled to come later in the day and cut people who sat through the cold and rain overnight. Essentially just making them feel bad. The "line nazi" did a great job taking care of the people who queued for a long time as well as people who didn't know about the list, but still got there at an early time. I'd like to give my warm thanks.

EXACTLY.

If there were any cliques going on at Pomona, it was not related to the list. It was the people who let their friends show up hours after and cut the queue. The list at Pomona was not at all based on knowing people personally. I had just met the list nazi the night before, but he took care of me because he knew I had slept on the cold concrete in the rain that night.