Discussion about journalism and racism (based around Siouxsie & Morrissey)

I don't think he can help it - he's naturally hyperbolic.

The vast majority of his interviews go by without incident & then occasionally a writer will misunderstand, dislike or misrepresent him, there's a huge storm, he gets angry, hides for a while, gets forgiven for the thing he didn't do & it starts again.

It probably feels quite random to him.
Yes, I agree that Morrissey has gone through this cycle several times in the 80s and 90s and even after that. Some journalists have indeed come to the interview with the portrait of Morrissey that they want to show already firmly decided in their head, and they fish for the quotes that can be fitted into that picture. All the information posted on that Moore interview would confirm this assumption that the guy already had a theory in mind that he wanted to prove.

Does it feel quite random to Morrissey? I wouldn't think so. To me, it seems like it added to his paranoia, mistrust of people and bitterness.
 
Yes, I agree that Morrissey has gone through this cycle several times in the 80s and 90s and even after that. Some journalists have indeed come to the interview with the portrait of Morrissey that they want to show already firmly decided in their head, and they fish for the quotes that can be fitted into that picture. All the information posted on that Moore interview would confirm this assumption that the guy already had a theory in mind that he wanted to prove.

Does it feel quite random to Morrissey? I wouldn't think so. To me, it seems like it added to his paranoia, mistrust of people and bitterness.

Oh, I agree - it's eroded his trust & he can be paranoid & bitter about it.

By random I mean he can't predict which interview will cause him a problem or why.
 
I don't think Moz understands that it's the way journalists frame & interpret his words that make them unrecognizable to him. They're usually not so stupid that they'll make it up entirely. And it's harder to sue for a bad edit or spin.
I think this part is important.
It's probably more complicated than this and there's a lot of other things that play into it - like his humour and sarcasm that is often not recognised as such, especially in print, as well as his tendency for deliberately provocative language - but I do think he sometimes genuinely does not understand why he does not succeed in getting his point of view across. And, without diving too deeply into this particular topic, I believe this is quite literally due to the fact that he's 'wired' differently from most other people.
That being said, I also believe that in more recent years, probably since the hiatus, he did say certain things to stir up controversy, although those were not necessarily the things for which he faced the most opposition.
 
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I think this part is important.
It's probably more complicated than this and there's a lot of other things that play into it - like his humour and sarcasm that is often not recognised as such, especially in print, as well as his tendency for deliberately provocative language - but I do think he sometimes genuinely does not understand why he does not succeed in getting his point of view across. And, without diving too deep into this particular topic, I believe this is quite literally due to the fact that he's 'wired' differently from most other people.
That being said, I also believe that in more recent years, probably since the hiatus, he did say certain things to stir up controversy, although those were not necessarily the things for which he faced the most opposition.

Yeah, I think it would be hard to dispute that he's neurodivergent.

I think he might just have become agitated about the state of the world - the 2010s were confusing as hell. He's sensitive to media & we've never been so bombarded with news & opinion.
 
I'm not disagreeing with your main point, but you probably know the reasons why they're treating him differently just as well as I do.

Calling Hong Kong Garden a racist song is, in my opinion, ridiculous though. Its confrontational aspects are part of what makes it great. It's punk.
It's like people getting upset about The Cure's Killing An Arab, solely based on the use of the word "Arab" (and people's laziness).

What about Iggy's and Bowie's China Girl, which is actually about a Vietnamese woman...

I'm not disagreeing with your main point, but you probably know the reasons why they're treating him differently just as well as I do.

Calling Hong Kong Garden a racist song is, in my opinion, ridiculous though. Its confrontational aspects are part of what makes it great. It's punk.
It's like people getting upset about The Cure's Killing An Arab, solely based on the use of the word "Arab" (and people's laziness).

What about Iggy's and Bowie's China Girl, which is actually about a Vietnamese woman...
Yes, but Robert Smith gave up and its now called Killing Another, something I don't think he should have done
 
í came across this piece by Frankly Gavin Owens, explaining to Yanks how the Manchester punk scene spat to life, a couple of years ago; í think when í was on a Cummins hunt ~




Apart from flagging up Steven as "wallflower" and "that delicate bloom"...hur hur... he describes certain scenes from his owen life that seem strangely familiar from that "MM " hack job {Perry boys in bus stations at midnight etc}.

í think that, even more so than the other music hacks of the day, any journo from Manchester almost inevitably had some kind of history with Moz, and all kinds of attendant bitters, loathings and psycho-dramaramas that tainted their copy. And vice versa...

It's an excellent article.

Frank Footnote ~ if í were a "local teenage wallflower" í wouldn't think í would be spending my stifled Friday July nights in an upstairs room with a bunch of punks. Maybe a point Frank/Gav should have considered?

.
 
Hong Kong Garden (coincidentally also produced by Lillywhite) is deliberately 'offensive'. That's the whole point of the song. It's satire.
nah,thats a cop out for me,there was no satire in punk,the whole point of punk was to shock and be diliberately offensive.she knew what she was writing and should hold her hands up,that means god save the queen and margaret on the guilotine can now be classed as satire.
 
Yes, but Robert Smith gave up and its now called Killing Another, something I don't think he should have done
Oh, I absolutely agree. Kissing An Arab was also a mistake.
And yes, it's his song, he's can do whatever he wants with it, but I doubt he did it because he felt like it was the best creative choice or because it's more fun to sing.
He did return to the original lyric in more recent years though.
 
Does anyone have a source for Green Gartside's accusation that Panic was racist?
green gartside was a wet blanket in the 80s,scritti had a couple of decent songs but that was it.i wouldnt hang my hat on anything he has said over the years.
 
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í came across this piece by Frankly Gavin Owens, explaining to Yanks how the Manchester punk scene spat to life, a couple of years ago; í think when í was on a Cummins hunt ~




Apart from flagging up Steven as "wallflower" and "that delicate bloom"...hur hur... he describes certain scenes from his owen life that seem strangely familiar from that "MM " hack job {Perry boys in bus stations at midnight etc}.

í think that, even more so than the other music hacks of the day, any journo from Manchester almost inevitably had some kind of history with Moz, and all kinds of attendant bitters, loathings and psycho-dramaramas that tainted their copy. And vice versa...

It's an excellent article.

Frank Footnote ~ if í were a "local teenage wallflower" í wouldn't think í would be spending my stifled Friday July nights in an upstairs room with a bunch of punks. Maybe a point Frank/Gav should have considered?

.


I don't think Frank meant to do a hatchet job - I think he was just a very bad writer at the time - & he didn't quite grasp how horrendously bad accusing someone of singing about hanging black people was & how much Morrissey hates being 'othered' with labels about his sexuality.
 
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í came across this piece by Frankly Gavin Owens, explaining to Yanks how the Manchester punk scene spat to life, a couple of years ago; í think when í was on a Cummins hunt ~




Apart from flagging up Steven as "wallflower" and "that delicate bloom"...hur hur... he describes certain scenes from his owen life that seem strangely familiar from that "MM " hack job {Perry boys in bus stations at midnight etc}.

í think that, even more so than the other music hacks of the day, any journo from Manchester almost inevitably had some kind of history with Moz, and all kinds of attendant bitters, loathings and psycho-dramaramas that tainted their copy. And vice versa...

It's an excellent article.

Frank Footnote ~ if í were a "local teenage wallflower" í wouldn't think í would be spending my stifled Friday July nights in an upstairs room with a bunch of punks. Maybe a point Frank/Gav should have considered?

.

I read that article last night and the parallels to Morrissey's story are indeed bewildering, right down to the use of the terms "beer monsters" and "delicate bloom", both direct quotes.
Quite ironic considering that Morrissey's own accounts of the grimness and bleakness and violence of his childhood and youth have sometimes been contested and ridiculed.

It is a really good article, but I agree those nights spent getting shitfaced and being beaten up don't sound like something Morrissey would have enjoyed being a part of at the time. And he said as much in that Cleveland interview (and of course Owen couldn't help himself from making a snide remark about it):

"'I never liked The Ranch. I have a very early memory of it and it was very, very heavy. I never liked Dale Street. There was something about that area of Manchester that was too dangerous.'
You big jessy, you big girl's blouse, Morrissey. But he's right. It was dangerous and, with the increased media visibility of punk, the violence got worse. You see, punks were not only f*gg*ts, they were uppity f*gg*ts as well. They made music, they wrote poetry, and, of course, they dressed up."

For a deeper insight into Manchester's musical history I warmly recommend John Robb's The North Will Rise Again, which compiles reams of recollections by contemporary witnesses including a certain "delicate bloom".

Funny sidenote (well, not that funny): I'm always checking the football scores before going certain places (or I was back when football audiences and going places were still a thing). Is that not something everyone does?
 
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I don't think Frank meant to do a hatchet job - I think he was just a very bad writer at the time - & he didn't quite grasp how horrendously bad accusing someone of singing about hanging black people was & how much Morrissey hates being 'othered' with labels about his sexuality.
I think you're right regarding his comments concerning black music. Owen said he never thought Morrissey was racist and seems to have underestimated the effect his remarks would have.
I do think he was trying to make a point with that article though, just not about racism.
 
I read that article last night and the parallels to Morrissey's story are indeed bewildering, right down to the use of the terms "beer monsters" and "delicate bloom", both direct quotes.
Quite ironic considering that Morrissey's own accounts of the grimness and bleakness and violence of his childhood and youth have sometimes been contested and ridiculed.

It is a really good article, but I agree those nights spent getting shitfaced and being beaten up don't sound like something Morrissey would have enjoyed being a part of at the time. And he said as much in that Cleveland interview (and of course Owen couldn't help himself from making a snide remark about it):

"'I never liked The Ranch. I have a very early memory of it and it was very, very heavy. I never liked Dale Street. There was something about that area of Manchester that was too dangerous.'
You big jessy, you big girl's blouse, Morrissey. But he's right. It was dangerous and, with the increased media visibility of punk, the violence got worse. You see, punks were not only f*****s, they were uppity f*****s as well. They made music, they wrote poetry, and, of course, they dressed up."

For a deeper insight into Manchester's musical history I warmly recommend John Robb's The North Will Rise Again, which compiles reams of recollections by contemporary witnesses including a certain "delicate bloom".

Funny sidenote (well, not that funny): I'm always checking the football scores before going certain places (or I was back when football audiences and going places were still a thing). Is that not something everyone does?

I used to - but I've realized it's never worse than Sauchiehall Street on a Saturday night.
 
I think you're right regarding his comments concerning black music. Owen said he never thought Morrissey was racist and seems to have underestimated the effect his remarks would have.
I do think he was trying to make a point with that article though, just not about racism.

It'll be interesting when Morrissey's archive becomes public. I get the impression he's kept records of everything.
 
It'll be interesting when Morrissey's archive becomes public. I get the impression he's kept records of everything.
I don't really want to think about that and for his own sake I hope it never happens.
 
All of that 'stuff' will drop in to the lap of someone with a proven record of not particularly communicating very well whilst remaining awkward, insular, problematic and only holding court with a select few - so I'd anticipate nothing whatsoever of that material appearing ever.
Maybe some cherry picked bits to monetise, but nothing on the scale to match what is thought to exist.
Something I'd be happy to be wrong about.
Regards,
FWD.
 
I'd prefer Morrissey himself to publish selected pieces. A lush ten-volume edition of hand-picked, hand-written notes, diaries and personal photographs.
A fever dream, I know.

The thought of other people going through his stuff and deciding what should be made available and thus dictating the narrative makes me very uncomfortable.
Control has always been so important to him.
 
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