Discussion about journalism and racism (based around Siouxsie & Morrissey)

Famous when dead said:
All of that 'stuff' will drop in to the lap of someone with a proven record of not particularly communicating very well whilst remaining awkward, insular, problematic and only holding court with a select few - so I'd anticipate nothing whatsoever of that material appearing ever.
Maybe some cherry picked bits to monetise, but nothing on the scale to match what is thought to exist.
Something I'd be happy to be wrong about.
Regards,
FWD.
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Yeah - I'm hoping a wee bit of him is ambitious enough to give his money to his loved ones & his artistic legacy to someone who knows how to bring out the best in it.

But there are so many examples of an estate badly run for decades after the artist's death.

I might not live long enough!
 
I'm putting this here - because I'm going to update my website on my laptop & this crap is on my phone & if I look at that Twitter thread again, I may kill people.

Plus when Twitter is dead we can remember how moral it thought it was being during badly researched pile-ons.


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Nerak said:
I'm putting this here - because I'm going to update my website on my laptop & this crap is on my phone & if I look at that Twitter thread again, I may kill people.

Plus when Twitter is dead we can remember how moral it thought it was being during badly researched pile-ons.


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Poor Matt, he's struggling. 😔❄
I hope the moral authority that is Pete Paphides had sound advice for him.
 
jw above who looks as if he could have a part in delivarence said bengali in platforms,national front disco and asian rut are as he said hiding in plain sight,because the first one contains the word bengali the scond one contains two words national front and the third contains the word asian,are these people holier than thou,have they never committed a cardinal sin,these people take their brain out nightly and put it in a glass of water next to their false gnashers.
 
GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn said:
Oh, I absolutely agree. Kissing An Arab was also a mistake.
And yes, it's his song, he's can do whatever he wants with it, but I doubt he did it because he felt like it was the best creative choice or because it's more fun to sing.
He did return to the original lyric in more recent years though.
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Really? I didn’t know that. Well, good for him! ART is mightier than political correctness. Wonder if Morrissey’s recent nonrelationship
with the media empowered Robert to finally take a stance.
 
Nerak said:
Did skinheads like it in 1979???

It sounds like a surf song.

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I believe it mainly became an 'issue' in the US from the 80s onwards.

It's a perfect post-punk song. I'm a huge fan of The Cure's early work and I think the way they practically disowned their debut single was a disgrace.
 
I reckon it's amauzing houw mucuh yuou loonies studuy American polituics and knouw nothiung aubout America or American politiucs. I reckon iut's jusut likue yuou knouw nothiung aubout whuo reaully tuhe California Son ius aund hius reul liufe iun LA. I reckon tuhe onuly thiung I knouw aubout Brit Tin ius their old lady president with messed up hair and a black eye that the California Son has as his stage backdrop inn n nnn nnnnn nn n n nnn nn it.

Fark Arse
 
GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn said:
I believe it mainly became an 'issue' in the US from the 80s onwards.

It's a perfect post-punk song. I'm a huge fan of The Cure's early work and I think the way they practically disowned their debut single was a disgrace.
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I ended up on an old thread - how I do not know - but Viva Hate said Morrissey said:

“not every male is a man” and that he personally “feels more like a woman than a man”.

Do you know if he did say that & if he did, where?
 
GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn said:
I believe it mainly became an 'issue' in the US from the 80s onwards.

It's a perfect post-punk song. I'm a huge fan of The Cure's early work and I think the way they practically disowned their debut single was a disgrace.
Click to expand...

Having listened to it a couple of times - I'd be surprised if racists would bother with it, even if they liked the 'killing an Arab' bit.

The fact that Moz was so unpopular at Finsbury Park that he refused to play the second gig seems to swoosh over people's heads. If a bit of a song was enough to attract racist skinheads (in his case, England for the English), he would have been fine.
 
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Nerak said:
I ended up on an old thread - how I do not know - but Viva Hate said Morrissey said:

“not every male is a man” and that he personally “feels more like a woman than a man”.

Do you know if he did say that & if he did, where?
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I'm not aware of this particular quote. I'm pretty sure I would remember that one if I had read it before, unless it was an ironic throwaway comment.

He did say he'd "always felt closer to transsexuality than anything else" but not with regards to gender, I think he really meant to 'transcend sexuality' in that context.

He was/is very pro gender fluidity and some of his statements could be interpreted as an expression of non-binary identity.

"I’m very interested in GENDER. I feel I’m a kind of prophet for the fourth sex … I just want something different. I want to make it easier for people. I’m bored with men and I’m bored with women. All this sexual segregation that goes on, even in rock and roll, I really despise it." (Paul Morley, Blitz, 1988)

His terminology was always a bit wishy-washy though and frankly, the same goes for interviewers, journalists and biographers, so sexuality and sex/gender often got mixed up.

"'It’s an isolation that’s almost genderless because I don’t speak from a very strict heterosexist angle. I cannot segregate the sexes. I cannot see women over there and men over there and this large chasm between the two.'
So where did he place himself on this sexual horizon? 'In the middle somewhere. [...] I do like to speak for both the sexes because I feel that the difference between them is incredibly thin.'" (quote taken from Rogan, primary source is Earsay 1984, I believe)
 
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Nerak said:
Having listened to it a couple of times - I'd be surprised if racists would bother with it, even if they liked the 'killing an Arab' bit.
The fact that Moz was so unpopular at Finsbury Park that he refused to play the second night seems to swoosh over people's heads. If a bit of a song was enough to attract racist skinheads (in his case, England for the English), he would have been fine.
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And yet...
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GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn said:
I'm not disagreeing with your main point, but you probably know the reasons why they're treating him differently just as well as I do.

Calling Hong Kong Garden a racist song is, in my opinion, ridiculous though. Its confrontational aspects are part of what makes it great. It's punk.
It's like people getting upset about The Cure's Killing An Arab, solely based on the use of the word "Arab" (and people's laziness).

What about Iggy's and Bowie's China Girl, which is actually about a Vietnamese woman...
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I used to think the song "China Girl" was a drug song about heroin. I had this idea that the drug opium came from China.

I don't understand why Morrissey is treated differently in the music press to many other artists. Could it be because he never married and had children? Then I thought about Debbie Harry she never had children. Kylie Minogue never had children. Not sure Dolly Parton had children of her own.

Maybe it could be the "For Britain" stuff but the press were hard on Morrissey before this with the Union Jack flag thing years ago in the 1990s. There has never been any real proof that Morrissey is far-right he is probably a 'Libertarian'. Morrissey is a big supporter of Israel which is great. People who are close to Morrissry say he isn't racist.

When David Bowie did the Nazi thing I found it frightening. I think also because he was a blonde man and he looked like the 'Aryan' type the Nazis like. I can't stand fascism, the far-right, Hitler and Nazis this is what the British fought against in the Second World War.

I read that David Bowie slept with young girl groupies was this true?

Maybe people don't see David Bowie as racist because he married a black lady model Iman and he liked black American music but then Morrissey also likes black American culture.

I saw in some David Bowie music videos, promotional stuff, album covers and so on there is Freemasonry symbolism people would just make excuses saying it is him being 'artistic' and 'creative' and different and pushing boundaries. There are some things about David Bowie that don't add up. Bowie isn't his real surname.
 
Bit on gender roles via "Homme Alone 2" by David Keeps in Details - December, 1992.
Full long article here.

"It's hard to be a man," he says. "It's made to be hard and I don't know why. I think it's easier to be a woman. The women's movement has been so successful; the men's movement has never been accepted. I think it's not wanted. I think the expectation that men be stoic and strong is so enormous that finally they decide that this is the attractive way to be. There's more to life than being macho - such an ugly word - which is something that I realized at the age of one."
I ask him about the men's movement. He read The Liberated Man by Warren Farrell when he was fifteen, he says, "so you can't tell me anything about it." Has he read Iron John? Never heard of it. He doesn't believe the Lollapalooza generation is reinventing masculinity or pop culture. "It could just be a fashion, but I think it's a good one. I think Henry Rollins looks very, very good. His poetry I'm not very sure about."
In his own quiet way, Morrissey has redefined manhood. His songs have captured the angst of male adolescence and turned his sensitivity into strength, he has stirred an affection in men of every sexual orientation, and, despite his protests to the contrary, he has become a new kind of sex symbol. He speaks of love and sex in pronoun-free abstractions, but he is not so much sexually ambiguous as ambivalent."

Worth a read.

Unlike some historical assertions of misquoted and then conflated things said by Morrissey to fit someone's particular agenda here.
Regards,
FWD.
 
Nerak said:
I found this article about it - it's one of those media feeding frenzies you can't do much about.
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The sticker was, yes.

Changing the line and title was the problem though and I'm glad they stopped doing that.
 
I think this is certainly true

“he is not so much sexually ambiguous as ambivalent."
 
Famous when dead said:
Bit on gender roles via "Homme Alone 2" by David Keeps in Details - December, 1992.
Full long article here.

"It's hard to be a man," he says. "It's made to be hard and I don't know why. I think it's easier to be a woman. The women's movement has been so successful; the men's movement has never been accepted. I think it's not wanted. I think the expectation that men be stoic and strong is so enormous that finally they decide that this is the attractive way to be. There's more to life than being macho - such an ugly word - which is something that I realized at the age of one."
I ask him about the men's movement. He read The Liberated Man by Warren Farrell when he was fifteen, he says, "so you can't tell me anything about it." Has he read Iron John? Never heard of it. He doesn't believe the Lollapalooza generation is reinventing masculinity or pop culture. "It could just be a fashion, but I think it's a good one. I think Henry Rollins looks very, very good. His poetry I'm not very sure about."
In his own quiet way, Morrissey has redefined manhood. His songs have captured the angst of male adolescence and turned his sensitivity into strength, he has stirred an affection in men of every sexual orientation, and, despite his protests to the contrary, he has become a new kind of sex symbol. He speaks of love and sex in pronoun-free abstractions, but he is not so much sexually ambiguous as ambivalent."

Worth a read.

Unlike some historical assertions of misquoted and then conflated things said by Morrissey to fit someone's particular agenda here.
Regards,
FWD.
Click to expand...

Thank you!!
 
í really don't know how í'd get through Modern Life without Pete Paphides & Caitlin Moran, Mr & Mrs, to show us the way to the higher moral ground...

.
 
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