"Morrissey vs the Conformist Cult" By Anything Goes (Paul Joseph Watson)

Fantastic we both made our points. We have a breakthrough.

We did!
The next step would be one of us reading a text by Morrissey and the other one saying "I agree with you".... we can take this experience to the next level by now.
 
It’s almost like he’s acting like a politician, isn’t it?
If I agree this is true where do we go from that? I don't really because all politicians don't act the same. I see him more like a "shock jock" and I'm not sure your country has the equivalent or what they're called, but in the US some well known examples you might have heard of would be Rush Limbaugh, Opie and Anthony, or Howard Stern. Alex Jones is also a fairly good example and one that this guy is associated with.
They're not running for office or trying to have the public give them a job. They're all trying to raise their profile and then they find other ways to monetize their notoriety that are less restrictive than the conditions that politicians have to adhere to, generally. Donald Trump did come close to being a bit of both though but, no, I don't think politician is really what he's trying to be.
These people can be entertaining but in a way they're almost worse than politicians, seeming to be more mercenary and opportunistic if that is possible. I agree there is some crossover.

But if he were "acting like a politician" what would your point be in making that comparison?
 
If I agree this is true where do we go from that? I don't really because all politicians don't act the same. I see him more like a "shock jock" and I'm not sure your country has the equivalent or what they're called, but in the US some well known examples you might have heard of would be Rush Limbaugh, Opie and Anthony, or Howard Stern. Alex Jones is also a fairly good example and one that this guy is associated with.
They're not running for office or trying to have the public give them a job. They're all trying to raise their profile and then they find other ways to monetize their notoriety that are less restrictive than the conditions that politicians have to adhere to, generally. Donald Trump did come close to being a bit of both though but, no, I don't think politician is really what he's trying to be.
These people can be entertaining but in a way they're almost worse than politicians, seeming to be more mercenary and opportunistic if that is possible. I agree there is some crossover.

But if he were "acting like a politician" what would your point be in making that comparison?

I guess my point was that ‘we’ve’ gone from criticising content to criticising a modality that is often celebrated—particularly when the content is liked.

You said “There are enough people out there that relate to him and they love it when someone speaks for them so they don't have to articulate their own viewpoints which rarely ends well for them.”

This could equally be applied to Trump, Mandela, Keir Hardy and thousands of other representatives. Including Morrissey. In and of itself I don’t feel doing this is a bad thing.

So are you really suggesting that he represents fearful thousands who you’d rather see having no representation at all—itself a political belief which itself seems shared but mostly unsaid by some here?

Or are you suggesting he’s lying—for his own benefit (the cynics view of politicians). I guess that’s interesting, because it might hint that that’s what you feel Morrissey is doing (as Watson mainly repeats Morrissey’s words in the video).
 
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So are you really suggesting that he represents fearful thousands who you’d rather had no representation at all—itself a political point which itself seems shared but mostly unsaid here?

Or are you suggesting he’s lying—for his own benefit (the cynics view of politicians). I guess that’s interesting, because it might hint that that’s what you feel Morrissey is doing (as Watson mainly repeats Morrissey’s words in the video).
He's not representing them, he's fleecing them. And even if he wasn't, is there something inherently valuable about carrying the torch for "fearful thousands" when the entirety of their platform is built upon a malignant lie? I know you'd rather cut off your own arm than ever criticize a racist, but wake up.
 
Some of Oscar Wilde's friends were George Bernard Shaw (who was part of the Fabian Society), John Ruskin, Frank Harris and Robert Ross.

I'm not a Roman Catholic. I was just saying that Oscar Wilde converted to Catholicism on his deathbed. Oscar Wilde was angry with his father for not letting him become a Catholic when he was younger. Oscar Wilde's father was a doctor and had a knighthood and he was Church of Ireland (Anglican) and he was very against Oscar Wilde converting to Catholicism. Oscar Wilde was brought up Church of Ireland (Anglican) but he actually had a fascination for Catholicism for a long time. It is true Oscar was not in a great mental state just before he died but who is probably very few.

It doesn't bother me what James Joyce thought of Oscar Wilde. I adore Oscar Wilde. Oscar Wilde was highly intelligent I would class him as a genius and he had a razor-sharp wit and was a great speaker and writer. He could speak many languages he could speak fluent French and many other languages he knew Ancient Greek he had studied the Classics. Oscar Wilde was from a pretty refined, distingished family they were well educated and cultured he wasn't from common stock not that it matters.

Oscar Wilde was from Dublin, Ireland the same as George Bernard Shaw. I have been on the George Barnard Shaw house tour in Dublin it is set out like Victorian times it is open to the public it is a tourist attraction now. It is George Bernard Shaw's childhood home.

I'm a born-again, Bible-believing Christian not a Catholic. I don't see becoming a Christian as selling out. Maybe you are an athiest I don't know.

Oscar Wilde understood the British class system he knew people from all classes from the upper classes to lower classes. He pointed out some of the ridiculousness of it all and some pretentious, snobby middle-class people. Oscar Wilde was a gentleman from upper middle-class pretty posh background but he did care about working-class people and homeless and people in real poverty in Victorian Britain. After he went to prison he cared about reforming the prisons.

To be honest I wish there was someone like Oscar Wilde around today also with his sense of style and love of beauty. Morrissey is the closest for me and Oscar Wilde is one of his heroes. Oscar Wilde was a nonconformist and I like people who are different.

Have adored Oscar Wilde since I was a child. The Picture of Dorian Gray is one of my favourite novels. I think what Joyce was pointing out though are the contradictions in the man - which are obvious for all to see. He was a man of paradoxes. Joyce was virulently anti-clerical and hated the totalitarian grip of Catholicism on Irish thought and culture. He was way ahead of his time. So I think he was annoyed that a man of Wilde's obvious wit and intellect - and mental and spiritual freedom - had appeared to jump ship at the end. Let's face it, one reason Wilde was attracted to Catholicism was for the angelic-faced altar boys. But Catholicism teaches the beauty of suffering - and that attracted Wilde, certainly after his fall. For me, I have no time at all for a religion that teaches that my salvation is dependent on a barbaric human sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago. I'm with Joyce on that one. But I respect your right to believe in Christianity, if it brings you comfort.
 
He's not representing them, he's fleecing them. And even if he wasn't, is there something inherently valuable about carrying the torch for "fearful thousands" when the entirety of their platform is built upon a malignant lie? I know you'd rather cut off your own arm than ever criticize a racist, but wake up.
I personally didn’t feel the video misrepresented what Morrissey was saying in the interview it referred to—and my response and interest in what The Truth stated comes from that belief.

So (in terms of what The Truth was saying) what might be the inferred implications for Morrissey—and more significantly his relationship with his fanbase?

Lots of people personally benefit in lots of ways from expressing opinions (it’s accepted and acceptable). But The Truth (and now yourself) are suggesting that there’s something more malign going on. The options seem to be (1) there is some unwanted representation of a fearful public voice (and that itself is ethically ‘wrong’) or (2) there is some direct manipulation, exploitation and/or lying for cash. Or (3) both.

I perceived fairly massive discursive possibilities in what The Truth wrote. But the ‘real’ issue needs teasing out, because for me his actual problem wasn’t clear. In my most negative interpretation of the post, Morrissey himself seemed implicated in some deliberately deceitful shenanigans. Slightly better was that Truth has a problem with modern democracy.

And slightly better than that was that Truth merely feels Watson is a c*** (an uncomplicated and understandable subjective thought which doesn’t really need any further attention).
 
Oh, great. Another long winded thread on this subject…
 
Have adored Oscar Wilde since I was a child. The Picture of Dorian Gray is one of my favourite novels. I think what Joyce was pointing out though are the contradictions in the man - which are obvious for all to see. He was a man of paradoxes. Joyce was virulently anti-clerical and hated the totalitarian grip of Catholicism on Irish thought and culture. He was way ahead of his time. So I think he was annoyed that a man of Wilde's obvious wit and intellect - and mental and spiritual freedom - had appeared to jump ship at the end. Let's face it, one reason Wilde was attracted to Catholicism was for the angelic-faced altar boys. But Catholicism teaches the beauty of suffering - and that attracted Wilde, certainly after his fall. For me, I have no time at all for a religion that teaches that my salvation is dependent on a barbaric human sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago. I'm with Joyce on that one. But I respect your right to believe in Christianity, if it brings you comfort.
I’m not sure you can dismiss a religion on the basis that you

“have no time at all for a religion that teaches that my salvation is dependent on a barbaric human sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago.”

You are judging here from an emotional Modern atheist, rather than an agnostic, position.
 
If I agree this is true where do we go from that? I don't really because all politicians don't act the same. I see him more like a "shock jock" and I'm not sure your country has the equivalent or what they're called, but in the US some well known examples you might have heard of would be Rush Limbaugh, Opie and Anthony, or Howard Stern. Alex Jones is also a fairly good example and one that this guy is associated with.
They're not running for office or trying to have the public give them a job. They're all trying to raise their profile and then they find other ways to monetize their notoriety that are less restrictive than the conditions that politicians have to adhere to, generally. Donald Trump did come close to being a bit of both though but, no, I don't think politician is really what he's trying to be.
These people can be entertaining but in a way they're almost worse than politicians, seeming to be more mercenary and opportunistic if that is possible. I agree there is some crossover.

But if he were "acting like a politician" what would your point be in making that comparison?


:(
we go back to square one FC, where everyone is a politician AND a shock jock

:)


:hammer:
 
He's not representing them, he's fleecing them. And even if he wasn't, is there something inherently valuable about carrying the torch for "fearful thousands" when the entirety of their platform is built upon a malignant lie? I know you'd rather cut off your own arm than ever criticize a racist, but wake up.
:crazy:
inherently valuable WTF?
is there something inherently valuable in punk rock? it calls itself music but nobody can sing or play the dumb :guitar:
yet you wont give it up.o_O
AND the taxpayer has to pay for it.(n)
the whole low down is not very valuable is it?(n)


:hammer:
 
Some of Oscar Wilde's friends were George Bernard Shaw (who was part of the Fabian Society), John Ruskin, Frank Harris and Robert Ross.

I'm not a Roman Catholic. I was just saying that Oscar Wilde converted to Catholicism on his deathbed. Oscar Wilde was angry with his father for not letting him become a Catholic when he was younger. Oscar Wilde's father was a doctor and had a knighthood and he was Church of Ireland (Anglican) and he was very against Oscar Wilde converting to Catholicism. Oscar Wilde was brought up Church of Ireland (Anglican) but he actually had a fascination for Catholicism for a long time. It is true Oscar was not in a great mental state just before he died but who is probably very few.

It doesn't bother me what James Joyce thought of Oscar Wilde. I adore Oscar Wilde. Oscar Wilde was highly intelligent I would class him as a genius and he had a razor-sharp wit and was a great speaker and writer. He could speak many languages he could speak fluent French and many other languages he knew Ancient Greek he had studied the Classics. Oscar Wilde was from a pretty refined, distingished family they were well educated and cultured he wasn't from common stock not that it matters.

Oscar Wilde was from Dublin, Ireland the same as George Bernard Shaw. I have been on the George Barnard Shaw house tour in Dublin it is set out like Victorian times it is open to the public it is a tourist attraction now. It is George Bernard Shaw's childhood home.

I'm a born-again, Bible-believing Christian not a Catholic. I don't see becoming a Christian as selling out. Maybe you are an athiest I don't know.

Oscar Wilde understood the British class system he knew people from all classes from the upper classes to lower classes. He pointed out some of the ridiculousness of it all and some pretentious, snobby middle-class people. Oscar Wilde was a gentleman from upper middle-class pretty posh background but he did care about working-class people and homeless and people in real poverty in Victorian Britain. After he went to prison he cared about reforming the prisons.

To be honest I wish there was someone like Oscar Wilde around today also with his sense of style and love of beauty. Morrissey is the closest for me and Oscar Wilde is one of his heroes. Oscar Wilde was a nonconformist and I like people who are different.
Have adored Oscar Wilde since I was a child. The Picture of Dorian Gray is one of my favourite novels. I think what Joyce was pointing out though are the contradictions in the man - which are obvious for all to see. He was a man of paradoxes. Joyce was virulently anti-clerical and hated the totalitarian grip of Catholicism on Irish thought and culture. He was way ahead of his time. So I think he was annoyed that a man of Wilde's obvious wit and intellect - and mental and spiritual freedom - had appeared to jump ship at the end. Let's face it, one reason Wilde was attracted to Catholicism was for the angelic-faced altar boys. But Catholicism teaches the beauty of suffering - and that attracted Wilde, certainly after his fall. For me, I have no time at all for a religion that teaches that my salvation is dependent on a barbaric human sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago. I'm with Joyce on that one. But I respect your right to believe in Christianity, if it brings you comfort.
Maybe people were more religious in the past I don't know. Oscar Wilde did come from a Christian background he was brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). His father was Church of Ireland (Anglican).

Oscar Wilde's father was a well known surgeon/doctor in Ireland who actually had a knighthood which was why he was a "Sir". Part of why Oscar Wilde couldn't become a Catholic in his younger years was because his father would not allow it. Oscar was angry with his father about that. Oscar Wilde's father was very keen for Oscar to go to Oxford University which of course he did. Oscar obviously had to follow his father's wishes to some extent when he was young and his father was of high standing in Irish society and maybe he also had respect for his father.

I don't think James Joyce was in Oscar Wilde's friendship group. They might have met but I don't think they were particularly close. Yes, they were both Irish writers. Oscar Wilde was good friends with Irish playwright George Barnard Shaw (who became part of the Fabian Society and was a vegetarian). George Bernard Shaw always had nice things to say about Oscar Wilde he was a good friend.

Robert Ross was maybe Oscar Wilde's closest friend and he genuinely cared about him. John Ruskin was one of Oscar Wilde's tutors when he was studying at Oxford University. Frank Harris was a friend. Oscar Wilde had other friends too.

A Catholic priest had been visiting Oscar Wilde for a while before he died. It wasn't like it just happened the conversion and then he died. There are accounts that Oscar wasn't in a great mental state before he died that is true but that is probably true for a lot of people.

About the altar boys that is rubbish and Oscar Wilde wasn't a pedophile. There are choir boys in the Anglican church and altar servers which are similar to altar boys. That wouldn't be a good reason to change from being Anglican to Catholic.

The reason why Oscar Wilde wanted to become a Catholic when he was younger was because he thought it might have a calming affect to help with his more wild behaviour and help him to be more moral. A lot of Catholic churches are quite ornate with gold and stuff.

When Oscar Wilde came out of prison he asked some Jesuits if he could go on a retreat with them. I think they were Monks. They didn't have any retreats available at such short notice. I don't think Oscar was seriously thinking of becoming a Monk but maybe he just wanted a break from everything after what he had been through in prison. Jesuits are part of the Catholic Church.

Oscar Wilde was an intellectual, he was highly intelligent and very well educated. He was known for his sharp wit and he was a great speaker and writer. He was exceptionally good with languages he could speak many languages and studied the Classics he could speak Ancient Greek. He understood philosophy, history and art.

I'm a born-again, Bible-believing Christian. It isn't just about comfort it is what I believe. I believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ being the only begotten Son of God. It isn't always easy being a Christian.
 
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Maybe people were more religious in the past I don't know. Oscar Wilde did come from a Christian background he was brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). His father was Church of Ireland (Anglican).

Oscar Wilde's father was a well known surgeon/doctor in Ireland who actually had a knighthood which was why he was a "Sir". Part of why Oscar Wilde couldn't become a Catholic in his younger years was because his father would not allow it. Oscar was angry with his father about that. Oscar Wilde's father was very keen for Oscar to go to Oxford University which of course he did. Oscar obviously had to follow his father's wishes to some extent when he was young and his father was of high standing in Irish society and maybe he also had respect for his father.

I don't think James Joyce was in Oscar Wilde's friendship group. They might have met but I don't think they were particularly close. Yes, they were both Irish writers. Oscar Wilde was good friends with Irish playwright George Barnard Shaw (who became part of the Fabian Society and was a vegetarian). George Bernard Shaw always had nice things to say about Oscar Wilde he was a good friend.

Robert Ross was maybe Oscar Wilde's closest friend and he genuinely cared about him. John Ruskin was one of Oscar Wilde's tutors when he was studying at Oxford University. Frank Harris was a friend. Oscar Wilde had other friends too.

A Catholic priest had been visiting Oscar Wilde for a while before he died. It wasn't like it just happened the conversion and then he died. There are accounts that Oscar wasn't in a great mental state before he died that is true but that is probably true for a lot of people.

About the altar boys that is rubbish and Oscar Wilde wasn't a pedophile. There are choir boys in the Anglican church and servers which are similar to altar boys. That wouldn't be a good reason to change from being Anglican to Catholic.

The reason why Oscar Wilde wanted to become a Catholic when he was younger was because he thought he might have a calming affect to help with his more wild behaviour and help him to be more moral. A lot of Catholic churches are quite ornate with gold and stuff.

When Oscar Wilde came out of prison he asked some Jesuits if he could go on a retreat with them. I think they were Monks. They didn't have any retreats available at such short notice. I don't think Oscar was seriously thinking of becoming a Monk but maybe he just wanted a break from everything after what he had been through in prison. Jesuits are part of the Catholic Church.

Oscar Wilde was an intellectual, he was highly intelligent and very well educated. He was known for his sharp wit and he was a great speaker and writer. He was exceptionally good with languages he could speak many languages and studied the Classics he could speak Ancient Greek. He understood philosophy, history and art.

I'm a born-again, Bible-believing Christian. It isn't just about comfort it is what I believe. I believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ being the only begotten Son of God. It isn't always easy being a Christian.

Joyce was 18 when Wilde died. No they never met. But as a young man aspiring to be a famous writer he obviously grew up in Wilde's shadow. And maybe what he wrote about Wilde was his way of standing out of that shadow and finding his own voice? You seem a bit touchy on the subject of Wilde's sexuality. Have a read at The Secret Life of Oscar Wilde. It's a great read. And a real eye opener.
 
I dont mind Paul but he is ten a penny in the UK , child minded brat of a human who says the obvious as if its a profound point. Worse than that though paul is the biggest conformist going .
He usually puddles deep of thought. and often plain wrong .

Hes basically stuck at the student union bar for ever
 
I’m not sure you can dismiss a religion on the basis that you

“have no time at all for a religion that teaches that my salvation is dependent on a barbaric human sacrifice that took place 2000 years ago.”

You are judging here from an emotional Modern atheist, rather than an agnostic, position.

Yes, you are right Hovis - but you can't beat a bit of light sarcasm first thing in the morning - it's good for the circulation
 
Bless...I remember when this forum had thousands of Morrissey fans complaining about the public not appreciating him enough.

Then there were a few hundred claiming Morrissey wasn't necessarily far-right.

Now scores of members rely on BS alt-right conspiracy theorists as their only remaining source. It's been a dramatic decline...
 
Bless...I remember when this forum had thousands of Morrissey fans complaining about the public not appreciating him enough.

Then there were a few hundred claiming Morrissey wasn't necessarily far-right.

Now scores of members rely on BS alt-right conspiracy theorists as their only remaining source. It's been a dramatic decline...

Interesting, if depressing.

I would be grateful to hear more of how the forum was in the past, before this "dramatic decline".

Or is this possibly an exaggeration?

Any thoughts from long-time people here would be appreciated.
 

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