Southpaw/I'm Not Sorry

Mozmar

Well-Known Member
Well you're wrong saying I don't accept an interpretation different to mine, if you go back on the thread I said everything is open to interpretation either way and that's the way Morrissey's songs have been from the start.
You're also ramming home this 'queer' theme when Morrissey has never opened up on his sexuality and is on camera for posterity refusing to acknowledge any tag whatsoever.
Talking about bollocks the assertion that if you're left handed means you're more likely to be gay, well that is nonsense and any reasonable thinking person would accept that. Plus, surely if it was a commonly known thing, it would be something everyone would be aware of no matter you're sexual orientation and not inside knowledge for gay folk?
And of course, Morrissey is right-handed.
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member
M

Mandingo

Guest
I don't know if you're not reading my posts attentively or if you don't care or if you just like twisting my words or whatever but

a) I'm not "ramming home" anything. It's my interpretation.
It is correct that he refuses any label attached to him, except his own, but it's also a fact that he has acknowledged past relationships with men and women. Let me know if you need quotes for that.

b) I never said being left-handed means you're more likely to be gay. (In fact, I said exactly the opposite in my first reply.) I said it was a stereotype and the fact that other people on this thread knew about it, shows that it's not uncommon. Others have provided more explanations as to why this term may be used in that way.

c) It's not "inside knowledge" either but if you're part of a certain group of people you're more likely to have heard every joke, stereotype or insult there is about this particular group. Nobody knows more redhead jokes than a redhead...

A quick Google search also led me to this Wikipedia entry on "Handedness and sexual orientation", which seems to assert that there might indeed be a connection, which I didn't know about and actually surprises me.



You say that you are willing to accept interpretations different from your own, yet here I am justifying my interpretation to you, while you have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion except repeatedly pointing out that you've never heard anyone use the term "left-handed" for a gay person.
I'm entitled to give my view of the points made in the thread so not sure about contributing nothing, not to your liking but so what.
The post I referred to about ramming queer in to the conversation was because you used that particular word five times over a few sentences, it seemed overload of a word I'm not sure anyone wants tagged with, it sounds offensive because it is. How about using homosexual or lesbian instead?
Anyway, it sounds almost medieval to suggest left handers are more likely to be gay, have you really thought about that? They used to throw women in rivers to see if they'd either survive or drown to determine whether they were witches don't you know.
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member
I'm entitled to give my view of the points made in the thread so not sure about contributing nothing, not to your liking but so what.
The post I referred to about ramming queer in to the conversation was because you used that particular word five times over a few sentences, it seemed overload of a word I'm not sure anyone wants tagged with, it sounds offensive because it is. How about using homosexual or lesbian instead?
Anyway, it sounds almost medieval to suggest left handers are more likely to be gay, have you really thought about that? They used to throw women in rivers to see if they'd either survive or drown to determine whether they were witches don't you know.
Again, I never suggested that. In my very first reply I said it was something falsely associated with being gay.
I shared something I found on Wikipedia with you, that doesn't mean I agree with it.


The reason I used "queer" instead of homosexual was that it's a term that includes a variety of identities and I wanted to avoid another discussion about gay/bi/huma.
It used to be a slur but it's being reclaimed as an umbrella term.
Being queer myself I don't mind it and I obviously didn't mean it in an offensive way. I could have used LGBTQ+ instead but people tend to get very triggered by that one as well, so I didn't.
I apologise if I've exceeded the acceptable number of times one is supposed to use this word in a text. 😉

It's not about whether I like your views, I feel fairly neutral about them to be honest.
It's more about you keeping on about this one phrase and that being the only point you've talked about so far. You are of course free to do that but why don't you share your take on the actual topic of the thread instead?
 

Mozmar

Well-Known Member
No, of course not. I was wondering about the relevance of your remark.
The relevance is/was, you were making assertions in relation to Moz being 'queer'. Mandingo disputed those assertions, together with the left-handed link to homosexuality. We've been talking about left-handedness links to being homosexual all morning, or so it seems, & I made reference to derogatory inferences 'left-hander/left-footer'. You provided links to various studies re; left-handedness, their findings & linkages to homosexuality, in some cases.

I posted that point about Moz being right-handed to suggest that Moz does not fit the 'left-handed so I must be homosexual' profile.

Also as Mandingo has pointed out, Moz has never actually identified as homosexual, or queer, as you seem to want to refer to it as.

I really don't give two hoots if Moz is, or isn't, homosexual btw.
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member
The relevance is/was, you were making assertions in relation to Moz being 'queer'. Mandingo disputed those assertions, together with the left-handed link to homosexuality. We've been talking about left-handedness links to being homosexual all morning, or so it seems, & I made reference to derogatory inferences 'left-hander/left-footer'. You provided links to various studies re; left-handedness, their findings & linkages to homosexuality, in some cases.

I posted that point about Moz being right-handed to suggest that Moz does not fit the 'left-handed so I must be homosexual' profile.

Also as Mandingo has pointed out, Moz has never actually identified as homosexual, or queer, as you seem to want to refer to it as.

I really don't give two hoots if Moz is, or isn't, homosexual btw.

It's 2020 and some people on here discuss Morrissey's sexuality as if he hadn't published an Autobiography 7 years ago.

You call it whatever you like, just like he does, but please stop inferring that I think you can tell a person's sexuality by what hand they write with because I don't and I never said that. 😂
 

Mozmar

Well-Known Member
I'm entitled to give my view of the points made in the thread so not sure about contributing nothing, not to your liking but so what.
The post I referred to about ramming queer in to the conversation was because you used that particular word five times over a few sentences, it seemed overload of a word I'm not sure anyone wants tagged with, it sounds offensive because it is. How about using homosexual or lesbian instead?
I have to agree with you on this, I'm not a fan of the term 'queer'. It sounds quite 'gauche' to me & something harking back to the bad old accusatory days of the 40s/50s/60s; surely there's something more palatable available.
 

Mozmar

Well-Known Member
It's 2020 and some people on here discuss Morrissey's sexuality as if he hadn't published an Autobiography 7 years ago.

You call it whatever you like, just like he does, but please stop inferring that I think you can tell a person's sexuality by what hand they write with because I don't and I never said that. 😂
I never said
I never said


Shall we just park the left-handedness theories then and move on? :lbf:
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member
I never said
I never said


Shall we just park the left-handedness theories then and move on? :lbf:
It wasn't even a pivotal part of my original interpretation...?
It all started with Bhops's post.

I have no theories about left-handedness at all, so I'm definitely ready to move on.
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member
I have to agree with you on this, I'm not a fan of the term 'queer'. It sounds quite 'gauche' to me & something harking back to the bad old accusatory days of the 40s/50s/60s; surely there's something more palatable available.
Ok, I'll be honest, I used "queer" partly because I'm too lazy to type LGTBQ+. And also because it's a term frequently used among my friends*. I'm aware of its history, but like I said, it's being reclaimed.

*my LGBTQ+ friends, I should add, to avoid any more confusion. I am not part of a group of gay bashing homo-hating people using "queer" as a slur to offend random left-handed people. 😅
 
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Nerak

Reverse Ferret
I was at an interesting workshop where they discussed the way gay male artists are rewarded for being feminine & niche & get hostility if they're masculine & universal.

I think that might have been why Miranda Sawyer was so weirdly contemptuous of men trying to hug Morrissey at concerts.

So, I like that he pays no heed to it & you can read a variety of things into his work & life.
 
M

Mandingo

Guest
Again, I never suggested that. In my very first reply I said it was something falsely associated with being gay.
I shared something I found on Wikipedia with you, that doesn't mean I agree with it.


The reason I used "queer" instead of homosexual was that it's a term that includes a variety of identities and I wanted to avoid another discussion about gay/bi/huma.
It used to be a slur but it's being reclaimed as an umbrella term.
Being queer myself I don't mind it and I obviously didn't mean it in an offensive way. I could have used LGBTQ+ instead but people tend to get very triggered by that one as well, so I didn't.
I apologise if I've exceeded the acceptable number of times one is supposed to use this word in a text. 😉

It's not about whether I like your views, I feel fairly neutral about them to be honest.
It's more about you keeping on about this one phrase and that being the only point you've talked about so far. You are of course free to do that but why don't you share your take on the actual topic of the thread instead?
I was one of the first to post an answer to one of the questions from the original poster on page one of the thread so have gave an opinion on topic.
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

Well-Known Member
I was one of the first to post an answer to one of the questions from the original poster on page one of the thread so have gave an opinion on topic.
Ah, apologies! I didn't notice.
I went to the thread pretty early on yesterday, perhaps your post hadn't been approved yet when I first read the answers.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
Well the idea that being left handed is 'commonly' associated with being gay is a new one on me, I have never heard that anywhere. Some of this sounds like that ridiculous book by David Bret where he ended up convinced that there was no room for interpretation and everything Morrissey represented was gay and nothing else...bizarre! Plus, is it really a double entendre or just a good old reference to boxing of which Morrissey had taken great interest in at the time with references in song, video, interviews and magazine photo shoots etc?
You are right the David Bret 'book' is tragic but I do agree with him about that. Perhaps it is a generational thing, but I've known and had gay friends use the slang 'leftie' as a a metaphor for being gay. It did come from the idea that being left-handed is somehow naturally wrong, hence someone who is gay is a leftie. Please don't shoot the messenger but I've heard that slang many times and actually assumed most people were aware of it TBH.

So yeah, a Southpaw in boxing terms is also a leftie. We must remember that this album was recorded post-breakup of Morrissey's first 'proper' relationship. By all accounts Jake was at least a amateur boxer and ignited an interest in the sport for Morrissey. So i always took the album title as something of nod to that relationship. In The Operation he is even more explicit,

'You fight with your right hand' (the boxing part) 'and caress with your left hand' (the homosexual/leftie part.) \

As for Southpaw, wow what a stunning song, I always assumed that 'the girl of your dreams' might hark back to Morrissey's teenage obsession Ann-Marie McVeigh, and the idea of what 'normal' (coda for straight) life might have been like had a relationship like that have worked out for him.

Anyhoo, all just specs-u-lation.
 

Oh my

Enough! or Too much
And in 'I'm Not Sorry', he sings "The woman of my dreams; She, she never came along; The woman of my dreams; Well, there never was one; And I'm; Not sorry for; For the things I've said; There's a wild man in my head; There's a wild man; In my head".

Was there a 'girl' in his Southpaw dreams? Or, maybe there never was one?

His "I'm not Sorry" and those specific lines are, for me, a very explicit gay confession from a man who is, otherwise, somehow playing hide and seek when it comes to homosexuality. I don't think the lyrics go further than a "I don't dream about a woman, I dream about a man... so, yes, I'm gay and I'm not sorry about it".

Other than that, I think Morrissey never wanted to be understood as exclusively gay... So he often played the fool about such thing or even coined terms like "humasexual"... then again, he never wanted to be labeled as a "hetero" either. As if it was a taboo subject. Probably he is somehow old fashioned when it comes to sexual orientations.

I remembered a long conversation with Alain a long time ago, during a tour... He was not happy at all with Morrissey (Alain was somehow drunk when I talked to him, so maybe he was simply pissed off that specific night)... His main problem was that, according to him, their contract did not allow them to do 3 things when Morrissey was around (probably in public places only): they were not allowed to smoke, they were not allowed to drink, they were not allowed to be seen with a woman in a romantic situation (probably with a man it was not allowed either, but he didn't say such thing). It's quite obvious that those rules have changed, but I assume that the third rule was meant to give the idea that none of them had a specific sexual orientation that could be known.
 
T

to the waterfall

Guest
His "I'm not Sorry" and those specific lines are, for me, a very explicit gay confession from a man who is, otherwise, somehow playing hide and seek when it comes to homosexuality. I don't think the lyrics go further than a "I don't dream about a woman, I dream about a man... so, yes, I'm gay and I'm not sorry about it".

Other than that, I think Morrissey never wanted to be understood as exclusively gay... So he often played the fool about such thing or even coined terms like "humasexual"... then again, he never wanted to be labeled as a "hetero" either. As if it was a taboo subject. Probably he is somehow old fashioned when it comes to sexual orientations.

I remembered a long conversation with Alain a long time ago, during a tour... He was not happy at all with Morrissey (Alain was somehow drunk when I talked to him, so maybe he was simply pissed off that specific night)... His main problem was that, according to him, their contract did not allow them to do 3 things when Morrissey was around (probably in public places only): they were not allowed to smoke, they were not allowed to drink, they were not allowed to be seen with a woman in a romantic situation (probably with a man it was not allowed either, but he didn't say such thing). It's quite obvious that those rules have changed, but I assume that the third rule was meant to give the idea that none of them had a specific sexual orientation that could be known.
I think that Morrissey is a student of Gore Vidal's, as he's said multiple times that people aren't "homo-" sexual or "hetero-" sexual. They're just sexual. Vidal believed that there were no gay or straight people, only gay/straight acts. He was against labels because he thought they were limiting and oppressive: “To create categories is the enslavement of the categorized because the aim of every state is total control over the people who live in it. What better way is there than to categorize according to sex, about which people have so many hang-ups?'
“[T]o make a category means a hierarchy of categories, at the top of which is breeders, at the bottom is same-sexualists.”

I believe the word for people like that is pomosexual.
 
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