"I am an animal" - Nature Notes

[nicky wire's legs]

i assumed that's what he was!

 

[nicky wire's legs]

but there are assistance dogs who can detect when someone is going to have an epileptic seizure and stuff like that and dogs who rescue drowning people. so they are helpful and they do care. they do what they can.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

i mean, if a dog was drowning would you swim into a raging river to rescue him? cause i sure as shit wouldnt. and yet dogs have been known to do that for human, even strangers.

 

[caramel sea salt]

 

[nicky wire's legs]

well, exactly, everyone does what they can. one single human isnt rushing in there to save the dog, because they know they cant. so they form a chain. a dog doesnt take you to the doctor, because he cant. there are no dog universities. it doesnt mean anything.

but not having free will, not having the capacity for immorality, animals are not poetic. the thing that people tout as making animals better than humans is actually what makes them lesser than.

 

[caramel sea salt]

well, exactly, everyone does what they can. one single human isnt rushing in there to save the dog, because they know they cant. so they form a chain. a dog doesnt take you to the doctor, because he cant. there are no dog universities. it doesnt mean anything.

But humans organising to rescue a dog means that everyone involved survives (highly likely, anyway). The doggo jumping in the river to try and rescue someone will probably lead to both of them drowning.

but not having free will, not having the capacity for immorality, animals are not poetic. the thing that people tout as making animals better than humans is actually what makes them lesser than.

Yes!!!

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Animals aren't noble, LOL. They have no concept of "noble", "good" or "bad". Lassie doesn't count, that's fiction. People here have been writing about all the things they do for their sick and dying pets, how they're taking them to the vet (a human) to give them medicines (made by humans) in order to reduce their suffering and prolong their lives. Animals don't take their sick friends to the doctor; they leave their mentally and physically unfit offspring to f***ing suffer and die and get eaten by predators.

I wasn't thinking of noble in terms of the animal knowing they're being noble. It would obviously only be nobility from our perspective. I was considering something like the comparison between a lion on the hunt and a group of frat boys in a car giggling and "bro"-ing each other in conversation while waiting in line at the drive-thru at a McDonald's. It's possible I'm not fairly comparing like with like, but both are in pursuit of a meal.

Perhaps it might be better to compare the lion with an agricultural worker de-beaking a chick, or a de-horning a calf, or beating a pig onto the ramp into the abattoir. Predators in the wild cause their prey suffering, but they don't have the capacity to do otherwise. We're the only species capable of noblesse oblige, and we don't exercise it.

 

[caramel sea salt]

I wasn't thinking of noble in terms of the animal knowing they're being noble. It would obviously only be nobility from our perspective. I was considering something like the comparison between a lion on the hunt and a group of frat boys in a car giggling and "bro"-ing each other in conversation while waiting in line at the drive-thru at a McDonald's. It's possible I'm not fairly comparing like with like, but both are in pursuit of a meal.

Perhaps it might be better to compare the lion with an agricultural worker de-beaking a chick, or a de-horning a calf, or beating a pig onto the ramp into the abattoir. Predators in the wild cause their prey suffering, but they don't have the capacity to do otherwise. We're the only species capable of noblesse oblige, and we don't exercise it.

But we do exercise it. Many times we don't, but many times we do. And isn't the fact that we are at least capable of noblesse oblige exactly what makes us superior? I guess one could argue that the very fact that we are capable of it and don't exercise it often enough makes us somehow inferior, but I think that's a bit of an impossible comparison: animals aren't capable of critical thinking or self-awareness. Knowing that we should protect those that are weaker than us and not doing it makes us mean, selfish, weak, lazy and flawed but it doesn't make us inferior.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

But we do exercise it. Many times we don't, but many times we do. And isn't the fact that we are at least capable of noblesse oblige exactly what makes us superior? I guess one could argue that the very fact that we are capable of it and don't exercise it often enough makes us somehow inferior, but I think that's a bit of an impossible comparison: animals aren't capable of critical thinking or self-awareness. Knowing that we should protect those that are weaker than us and not doing it makes us mean, selfish, weak, lazy and flawed but it doesn't make us inferior.

I agree completely with your last sentence. We are objectively superior in terms of our intelligence, and in our capacity to behave ethically. I would only say that because of our collective cruelties and ethical cruelties, we are the most shameful and disgraceful of all the species. Of course we're the only species to which those terms could possibly apply, so I admit they're something of a tautology.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Animals aren't noble, LOL. They have no concept of "noble", "good" or "bad".

Yes, but they can perform actions that can be perceived as, and labeled noble, etc.

Lassie doesn't count, that's fiction. People here have been writing about all the things they do for their sick and dying pets, how they're taking them to the vet (a human) to give them medicines (made by humans) in order to reduce their suffering and prolong their lives. Animals don't take their sick friends to the doctor; they leave their mentally and physically unfit offspring to f***ing suffer and die and get eaten by predators.

Hero Cat Saves Owner from Heart Attack by Pounding Paws on Her Chest: 'Very Grateful'

"I do think he saved my life and so does everybody else around me," owner Sam Felstead told BBC

people.com

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

i like animals but the thing is theyre not poetic

I find so much poetry in the architecture of a spider web, you can read them like poems. Same with a formation of birds flying overhead.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

well, exactly, everyone does what they can. one single human isnt rushing in there to save the dog, because they know they cant. so they form a chain. a dog doesnt take you to the doctor, because he cant. there are no dog universities. it doesnt mean anything.

but not having free will, not having the capacity for immorality, animals are not poetic. the thing that people tout as making animals better than humans is actually what makes them lesser than.

I would call having a statue erected in your honor a form of immortality.

War Dogs Memorial

Veterans Day of 2015 marked the installation of a special sculpture in Columbia‘s Memorial Park. Created by Illinois artist Renee Bemis, the bronze sculpture depicts a German shepherd and his handler, a United States soldier, during the Vietnam conflict. The artwork honors all military dogs and...

www.scpictureproject.org

how are you defining free will? Because animals do make their own choices, and seem to understand the consequences of certain actions, as in ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ because, for example, punishment and reward.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I agree completely with your last sentence. We are objectively superior in terms of our intelligence, and in our capacity to behave ethically.

And because of our so called ‘intelligence’ we may also be inferior. In the sense of having the capabilities to create and use a nuclear weapon vs not having the intelligence to build them in the first place (?) It might have been better if we weren’t so ‘intelligent’ or at least as intelligent as animals in this regard.

Not saying that man has not done any good.

I would only say that because of our collective cruelties and ethical cruelties, we are the most shameful and disgraceful of all the species. Of course we're the only species to which those terms could possibly apply, so I admit they're something of a tautology.

yes.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Animals aren't noble, LOL. They have no concept of "noble", "good" or "bad". Lassie doesn't count, that's fiction. People here have been writing about all the things they do for their sick and dying pets, how they're taking them to the vet (a human) to give them medicines (made by humans) in order to reduce their suffering and prolong their lives.

Animals don't take their sick friends to the doctor; they leave their mentally and physically unfit offspring to f***ing suffer and die and get eaten by predators.

As cruel as it seems to us, nature is their doctor.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I wasn't thinking of noble in terms of the animal knowing they're being noble.

I wonder how we would measure that?

It would obviously only be nobility from our perspective. I was considering something like the comparison between a lion on the hunt and a group of frat boys in a car giggling and "bro"-ing each other in conversation while waiting in line at the drive-thru at a McDonald's. It's possible I'm not fairly comparing like with like, but both are in pursuit of a meal.

Hunting and waiting to be served in a drive thru are obviously not comparable.

Even animal hunting and a man hunting is not comparable. Unless of course, the man is forced to survive in nature cutoff from society, which is rarely the case why humans in the west hunt.

Perhaps it might be better to compare the lion with an agricultural worker de-beaking a chick, or a de-horning a calf, or beating a pig onto the ramp into the abattoir. Predators in the wild cause their prey suffering, but they don't have the capacity to do otherwise. We're the only species capable of noblesse oblige, and we don't exercise it.

Yes agree. I wouldn’t say that’s comparable, because man has a choice to make or not make another animal suffer.

 

[goinghome]

We more or less agree that we've reached the point of human obsolesence. I think there's something wrong, though, with the narrative that it's an elite, or the corporations, or any cabal of big meanies, which is responsible for the despoilation of the natural world and the terrible plight of livestock animals. The elites are doubtless trying to enrich themselves without giving a f*ck, but at the same time, there's a whole population of non-elites who are complicit in the whole operation, because without the faithful consumer playing his or her part, the whole scheme collapses. It's a fact of most of the population not giving a f*ck.

And it's not out of ignorance. You can present people with your case; I assure you a vast majority of them will dismiss it, especially as regards eating animals. They might chuck a dime into a donation jar to save a polar bear adrift on an ice floe, but they're not going to quit their bacon cheeseburgers. In most cases there's something truly intractable going on. Many, many humans are ruthless at heart. It may be why we're the most successfully evolved of all species. When you're not only intelligent but discompassionate, there's really very little that can stop you. But no reign can last forever, and we'll get our richly deserved comeuppance soon enough.

I haven't watched the video, but I'm wary of Russell Brand. He's an interesting character, but at this point I think he's only a notch or two away from chakras and crystals (if he isn't already there).

A health treatment modality supported by more evidence-based research than many medicines - acupuncture - is performed based on a chakra interpretation of the body. Whatever properties crystals may have, they have a strong aesthetic and relaxing appeal for many. Isn't there great value per se in pleasure and calmness, which is hard to get counted in a world dead-set on efficiency? Beyond basic needs, what does the human animal seek?

I don't think and didn't say human obsolescence is a foregone conclusion, even while sharing concern about apparent widespread intractability - "Nationalized and globalized economic and political systems are increasingly dysfunctional and incapable of adequately responding to increasing challenges. Supply chains are breaking down. Marginalized populations are growing. Climate extremes are intensifying, while areas actually hit by them are struggling to rebuild. Global tensions and military spending are increasing, which basic needs such as clean water and affordable housing are crying to be met. The capture of governance systems by powerful interests serving only their own ends makes it difficult to address these growing problems. Gridlock and breakdown are the outcomes. The same institutions can and do capture local and state governments as well. But closer to home democratic possibilities are greater, and the people power mobilization we need to overcome vested interests is more possible. In the end, a national political system that no longer works opens the possibilities to create more horizontal arrangements, where institutions at local, state and regional/bioregional scales are empowered to tackle challenges and build societies more amenable to the human spirit and in tune with the nature of which we all are, finally, a part. Let us neither be alarmed or depressed by breakdowns at the national level. Instead, let it be a motivation to build our movements and strength closer to home, to be prepared for whatever might come." - https://theraven.substack.com/p/is-...ion_id=72245&post_id=95107052&isFreemail=true

See here for a lovely example of another solution, regenerative architecture, to minimise environmental stress -
https://www.dezeen.com/2022/12/28/sumu-yakashima-co-operative-housing-tsukasa-ono/

David Byrne of Talking Heads created an inspiring newsletter of similar stories about constructive actions people are taking around the world - https://reasonstobecheerful.world/

Here is philosopher Alain De Botton's School of Life's freshly created playlist called Reasons to be Hopeful, featuring a Smiths track -

Polanyi's Double Movement theory says that market tyranny and rebellion against it, have both been going on for a few centuries now. Meanwhile, indigenous peoples continue to sing as they try to cure the earth.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

A health treatment modality supported by more evidence-based research than many medicines - acupuncture - is performed based on a chakra interpretation of the body. Whatever properties crystals may have, they have a strong aesthetic and relaxing appeal for many. Isn't there great value per se in pleasure and calmness, which is hard to get counted in a world dead-set on efficiency? Beyond basic needs, what does the human animal seek?

don’t underestimate the power of the placebo effect.

I don't think and didn't say human obsolescence is a foregone conclusion, even while sharing concern about apparent widespread intractability - "Nationalized and globalized economic and political systems are increasingly dysfunctional and incapable of adequately responding to increasing challenges. Supply chains are breaking down. Marginalized populations are growing. Climate extremes are intensifying, while areas actually hit by them are struggling to rebuild. Global tensions and military spending are increasing, which basic needs such as clean water and affordable housing are crying to be met. The capture of governance systems by powerful interests serving only their own ends makes it difficult to address these growing problems. Gridlock and breakdown are the outcomes. The same institutions can and do capture local and state governments as well. But closer to home democratic possibilities are greater, and the people power mobilization we need to overcome vested interests is more possible. In the end, a national political system that no longer works opens the possibilities to create more horizontal arrangements, where institutions at local, state and regional/bioregional scales are empowered to tackle challenges and build societies more amenable to the human spirit and in tune with the nature of which we all are, finally, a part. Let us neither be alarmed or depressed by breakdowns at the national level. Instead, let it be a motivation to build our movements and strength closer to home, to be prepared for whatever might come." - https://theraven.substack.com/p/is-...ion_id=72245&post_id=95107052&isFreemail=true

See here for a lovely example of another solution, regenerative architecture, to minimise environmental stress -
https://www.dezeen.com/2022/12/28/sumu-yakashima-co-operative-housing-tsukasa-ono/

David Byrne of Talking Heads created an inspiring newsletter of similar stories about constructive actions people are taking around the world - https://reasonstobecheerful.world/

Here is philosopher Alain De Botton's School of Life's freshly created playlist called Reasons to be Hopeful, featuring a Smiths track -

Polanyi's Double Movement theory says that market tyranny and rebellion against it, have both been going on for a few centuries now.

Meanwhile, indigenous peoples continue to sing as they try to cure the earth.

hasn’t M sung many back to health?

 

[goinghome]

But we do exercise it. Many times we don't, but many times we do. And isn't the fact that we are at least capable of noblesse oblige exactly what makes us superior? I guess one could argue that the very fact that we are capable of it and don't exercise it often enough makes us somehow inferior, but I think that's a bit of an impossible comparison: animals aren't capable of critical thinking or self-awareness. Knowing that we should protect those that are weaker than us and not doing it makes us mean, selfish, weak, lazy and flawed but it doesn't make us inferior.

Animals do show levels of self-awareness. We can see it in pets sometimes, if we open our minds to the possibility, and studies confirm it, such as this on crows - https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/crows-higher-intelligence/

This thoughtful essay teases out why considering ourselves animals could be so important:
"...Life on Earth is full of diverse forms of intelligence and purpose. We’re only at the beginning of scientific discoveries about the way memory and intentions grip animal bodies from tip to claw. Eventually, we’re going to have to reckon with the true complexity of the other lives that surround us. The more we learn about other animals, the more we recognise other experiences that ought to matter if, by this logic, our own do.

It might well be in the rallying of our own bodily resources that our greatest opportunities lie. When we reconsider all that we gain by being animals, we’re confronted by some powerful resources for positive change. Just think of the gobsmacking beauty of bonding. If you have a dog beside you as you read this, bend down, look into her eyes, and stroke her. Via the hypothalamus inside your body, oxytocin will get to work, and dopamine – organic chemicals implicated in animal bonding – and, before you know it, you’ll be feeling good, even in the dark times of a pandemic. And, as it happens, so will your dog, who will experience a similar physical response to the bond between you both. Oxytocin is produced in the hypothalamus of all mammals. In other words, our bodies might well be our best and most effective tool in the effort to strike a new balance between humans and the rest of the living world. If we can tip ourselves more into a bonding frame of mind, we might find it easier to recognise the beauty and intelligence that we’re hellbent on destroying. By accepting that we’re animals too, we create the opportunity to think about how we might play to the strengths of our evolutionary legacies in ways that we all stand to gain from. If we can build a better relationship with our own reality and, indeed, a better relationship with other animals, we’ll be on the road to recovery." - https://aeon.co/essays/to-be-fully-human-we-must-also-be-fully-embodied-animal

 

[nicky wire's legs]

But humans organising to rescue a dog means that everyone involved survives (highly likely, anyway). The doggo jumping in the river to try and rescue someone will probably lead to both of them drowning.



Yes!!!

Doggos are pretty good Lil swimmers though!!

 

[nicky wire's legs]

I would call having a statue erected in your honor a form of immortality.

War Dogs Memorial

Veterans Day of 2015 marked the installation of a special sculpture in Columbia‘s Memorial Park. Created by Illinois artist Renee Bemis, the bronze sculpture depicts a German shepherd and his handler, a United States soldier, during the Vietnam conflict. The artwork honors all military dogs and...

www.scpictureproject.org

how are you defining free will? Because animals do make their own choices, and seem to understand the consequences of certain actions, as in ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ because, for example, punishment and reward.

well i mean they dont really have a very sophisticated emotional palette on which to base their decision making. it is just that: punishment and reward. the things that go into human decision making is so much more complex. i think you have to be able to form a picture of the outcomes that each decision might afford you (beyond just punishment and reward), and if you cant do that, then you dont really have free will in decision making. also, if an animal knows that he is going to be punished for doing something, he isnt likely to do it, so thats not really free will. a human might know that they are going to be punished for doing something and chose to do the thing anyway. that's free will. thats living beyond subjugation to base instinct and survival mechanisms. it shows that other things, other more sophisticated, poetic emotions, are at play in the organism.