Morrissey and Ayn Rand

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Ayn Rand who lived through most of the twentieth century is known for her philosophy of Objectivism and her figurative novels The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged as well as film-work, teaching etc.

I've finished a biography about her by Barbara Branden and have been struck with many similarities in her life and words to the public image of Morrissey. To whit:

- She was an across-the-board thespian, writing short-stories, essays, scripts for cinema, theatre, TV, and enjoying music and art.

- Her hero Roark finds that "it is Society, with all its boggled chaos of selflessness, compromise, servility and lies, that stands in [his] way...every conceivable form of 'second-hand living'...To every second-hand creature he stands as a contrast, a reproach and a lesson."

- A primary moral concept for her was the evil of 'the sanction of the victim'. "She saw that it is the victims, the men of virtue and ability, who make the triumph of evil possible by their willingness to let their virtues be used against them; their willingness to bear injustice, to sacrifice their own interests, to concede moral validity to the claims of their own destroyers" (people who are nice?);

- In encountering a soul-mate her heroine Taggart muses:" This was their world, she thought, this was the way men were meant to be and to face their existence - and all the rest of it, all the years of uglinesss and struggle were only someone's senseless joke".

- In a speech by her hero Galt: “Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice—and the alternative his nature offers him is: rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man—by choice; he has to hold his life as a value—by choice; he has to learn to sustain it—by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”

- Innumerable accounts have been recorded from people who read her books that they changed/saved their lives.

- When she appeared at talks, events, crowds would gather just to see her. She was extremely magnetic and daunting at once.

- An introduction to her interview with Playboy magazine observed: "Despite her successes, the literary establishment considers her an outsider. Almost to a man, critics have either ignored or denounced the book..."

- A close friend noted, "A tendency, present in her psychology since childhood, had grown and hardened over the years into an unquestionable absolute: that in any conflict between herself and another, the guilt, the blame, the responsibility could lie only with the other".

- Her success was built at grass-roots level in a sporadic organic way: "It was as if an underground stream flowed through the country and broke out in sudden springs that shot to the surface at random, in unpredictable places". Her books continue to sell steadily and her ideas are taught all over the world.

She was a Russian woman who died the year The Smiths formed. In her dogged individualism; her pulling herself by her bootstraps despite resistance; her bravery in naming what others would not, and in the longevity and richness of her influence she is another 'ultimate rebel'.

Anyone agree with the resemblence on these points?:confused:
 
This is interesting.

Seems a bit far fetched to me, but still interesting.

I've only red Atlas shrugged so i can't really contribute much to this.

All I know is that Raynd was a liberterian and that Morrissey once claimed to be socialist.

At least I red that in an interview from 95. But things change I suppose, and he's certainly the very image of individualism, to me.
 
The single-mindedness and, perhaps, some of the personality traits. But I think Morrissey is compassionate, vulnerable and sensitive (too vulnerable, too sensitive, it sometimes seems).

I only have the sketchiest knowledge of Rand's philosophy, but it always struck me as somewhat reptilian.
 
You've certainly laid out a compelling case, but in the end I don't really agree. I don't see much of a connection.

Having said that, in thinking about the ways Morrissey differs from Rand, I noticed that I had to compare her philosophy to Morrissey's from two distinct periods: early Smiths and late solo. How Morrissey's ideas have changed over the years might make for an interesting thread.
 
Atlas shrugged, and Moz shrugs too. Case closed.
 
Love him, hate her.
 
Taggart? The only Taggart I know is Inspector Taggart. Which is rhyming slang, I've just learnt, for- I'm not saying.:straightface: (Jesse Tobias must know that one. See that other thread :rolleyes:.)
 
I'm on the 's' entries in Mozipedia where it emerges that Morrissey claimed the essential message of Smithdom to be, 'accept yourself.' The integrity of the individual. Morrissey is more sympathetic to the struggles and weaknesses of the working classes, and to the inglorious small delights of achievement-stunted daily life, and in that way more 'socialist', but at the same time it is these kind of people that Rand also felt understood and used her message more for their self-empowerment than the wealthy or the intellectual. Morrissey portrays altruism at times, and can be 'compassionate, vulnerable and sensitive' but also is personally driven to succeed, and admires competent winners. Indeed when he doesn't get his way creatively, 'Moz shrugs' a lot!

We could as easily draw up a list of how Moz and Rand differ from eachother.

If anyone would like to hear her speak about her moral code for human existence through the power of reason, Tom Snyder was one who interviewed Rand in 1979 just a couple of years before she died. :straightface:It's in three parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4doTzCs9lEc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ex-rVkOFHU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFy9A7WEzPA&feature=related

'How Morrissey's ideas have changed over the years might make for an interesting thread'. Yes, it would, though necessarily speculative and sketchy. He was, and is, as Siouxsie said (an 's', note!) hard to pigeon-hole. :head-smack:
 
If ever a man could not accept himself then it's Moz, being incredibly uneasy in his skin, so why would he claim that the point of all that angst and anger and anarchy was about accepting yourself? That's bizarre, quite frankly. Is that a direct Moz quote, or a Goddard idea? I bought The Songs That Saved Your Life and, quite honestly, can't stand Mr. Uberfan and his obsessive tedious waffling.
 
According to several sources: -
A rallying cry to the dispossessed, "Accept Yourself" was upheld by its author as 'the fundamental request of Smithdom. Simply accept yourself, be yourself, relax, don't worry about anything as there's no point.'

When the song came out in 1983, Morrissey declared: "We received so many letters by people utterly affected by this song, people who'd let their shoes and their past completely dominate their lives."
 
I only have the sketchiest knowledge of Rand's philosophy, but it always struck me as somewhat reptilian.

You're spot on. Rand was a horrible person. I don't see how comparison can be anything but an insult.
 
Rand was a horrible person.

From what I've read of and about Rand, although I admit is not a whole lot, I would have to agree with this. She promoted ethical egoism and was a pretty into capitalism, and all together opposed to altruism as far as I understood. From what I know, I don't think Moz is the capitalist or the staunchly selfish type. And though I do think that looking out for one's own interest is important and beneficial, it doesn't mean you can't do things for other people for the sake of doing it. I don't see much comparison between the two besides the fact that they are individuals who take interest in themselves. But I think you can say that for most people. And Morrissey definitely has a compassionate or an "altruistic" side of him.

I remember reading an essay of hers and it opened up with her defining the word "selfish" from some dictionary as "looking out for one's own interest". I don't know what dictionary she was using, but every definition I've ever looked at says something along the lines as only looking after one's one interest regardless of others. I don't know what she was trying to pull, but her position on capitalism and selfishness I just can't back.
 
Wait a minute...

Ayn Rand is a woman? Never read anything by this person but always assumed it was a man (sounded like a man's name to me...)
 
According to several sources: -
A rallying cry to the dispossessed, "Accept Yourself" was upheld by its author as 'the fundamental request of Smithdom. Simply accept yourself, be yourself, relax, don't worry about anything as there's no point.'

Mercifully, not quite the same as "helping is futile"
 
And though I do think that looking out for one's own interest is important and beneficial, it doesn't mean you can't do things for other people for the sake of doing it.

I don't know enough about her either to say what her position if any was on people who cannot look after themselves in society for one reason or another. When she was a child Rand's family in St. Petersburg Russia were well-off but the state then just took their business away and relocated them. They were extremely poor under communist occupation and close to starvation for a few years before the rare opportunity came for her to emigrate. Her almost groupie-like devotion to the American Dream, freedom for the willing and able to rise, reflects her background.

Except for the respect for individuality, it seems we're mostly agreed there not much else in the comparison. :)
 
If ever a man could not accept himself then it's Moz, being incredibly uneasy in his skin, so why would he claim that the point of all that angst and anger and anarchy was about accepting yourself? That's bizarre, quite frankly. Is that a direct Moz quote, or a Goddard idea? I bought The Songs That Saved Your Life and, quite honestly, can't stand Mr. Uberfan and his obsessive tedious waffling.
Because he was/is trying to persuade himself of such things, as well as 'fans'.
Same deal with 'I'm OK By Myself', '..it's so easy to laugh/it's so easy to hate/it takes guts to be gentle and kind...', etcetera, etcetara. I don't see that Morrissey is saying 'I'm like this, now you should be too', more 'I want to be like this, how about you?'
It's why we luv 'im.
 
I don't see the resemblance in terms of the major aspects, i.e., what really matters. I see some commonalities such as their strong independence, which puts them at odds with certain conventional wisdoms and such, but it seems that the substance of what they stand for point to different means and ends as far as societal, political and economic views are concerned.
 
Morrissey might protest to Rand: 'After all these years, I find I'm ok by myself, and I don't need you, or your home-spun philosophy...'

Only she might have replied, good for you, Mr Morrissey, that's the spirit!

She was also rabidly against instigating aggressive action. A fine little award-winning animated film short featuring a real interview by a teenager with John Lennon during his Bed-In for peace covers some of the same ground:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmR0V6s3NKk&feature=player_embedded

(This is the embed address but I'm not sure how to insert?)
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