Please, please, please - don't ignore the Irish roots of The Smiths

Please please please - don't ignore Irish roots of The Smiths
- Irish Times

 

[Johnny Barleycorn]

Nice piece, and Irish folk music can be a truly beautiful thing, but they also gave us Westlife and Boyzone.

 

[Anonymous]

There was another Irish Times piece on this topic earlier in the year

See: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0402/1224293607057.html

 

[Anonymous]

The oirish people had their time and now no-one likes them or cares about them. That is the truth. For some reason they were the people that moved to america and then later were dubbed white trash so now you know that as well.

 

[IBEH]

The oirish people had their time and now no-one likes them or cares about them. That is the truth. For some reason they were the people that moved to america and then later were dubbed white trash so now you know that as well.

For an alternative view, see

http://www.culturenorthernireland.org/article.aspx?art_id=4068

http://www.nuthousepunks.com/blog/?p=2456

 

[Anonymous]

Troll

Spoiler

Dogs and Irish. PLEASE KEEP OFF THE GRASS!

 

[IBEH]

Here's an interesting review: http://www.independent.ie/entertain...d-english-heart-by-sean-campbell-2672293.html

 

[Anonymous]

Spoiler

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/12/peta_files_complaint_on_monkey.php

Please don't ignore the effort to stop the people responsible for the suffering shown in this video.

Off-topic

 

[Anonymous]

Smiths are English, none of them grew up in Ireland. Anyway, why does nationality come in to everything?
Thing is, if someone was born in Ireland to parents from somewhere else and they are successful there Irish, then if somone was born in a different place and successful with Irish parents apparently there Irish aswell, where's the logic in that?

 

[Anonymous]

Screw the rest of you.

I'm an Englishman and have a lot of time for the Irish. A passionate people with a fantastic set of beers.

As a northener of Yorkshire stock, stick me in with the Irish, Scots and Welsh rather than the Buckingham and Berkshire set any day.

 

[IBEH]

Smiths are English, none of them grew up in Ireland. Anyway, why does nationality come in to everything?
Thing is, if someone was born in Ireland to parents from somewhere else and they are successful there Irish, then if somone was born in a different place and successful with Irish parents apparently there Irish aswell, where's the logic in that?

1. The Irish Times article and the book it draws on don't claim The Smiths as Irish, but as Irish-English, which is how Morrissey and Marr see themselves (e.g. as 'Mancunian-Irish', or 'one of us on both sides'). The book in question does not claim The Smiths for Ireland; it sees them as born in England of Irish descent. It is clearly possible to grow up in England with parents from somewhere else and feel partly attached to that 'somewhere else'. This is certainly the case with The Smiths (ask Marr and Moz).

2. Nationality doesn't, or shouldn't, come into everything, but if you were second-generation Irish in England in the 1970s and 80s, the issue of nationality was something that you were forced to consider, whether you liked it or not. Also, The Smiths and Morrissey have engaged with issues of nationality in their work (e.g. 'The Queen Is Dead', 'Irish Blood, English Heart'), so it is relevant to these artists (they brought it into things, not the critics or fans).

3. It is quite possible for people born in Ireland to parents from somewhere else to be seen as belonging to that somewhere else. What about the Duke of Wellington? Or even Jonathan Swift.

4. It seems to annoy certain people who are invested in The Smiths' Englishness to see their band being re-positioned as part Irish. But this is the truth of the band's story. Read the chapter on The Smiths in this book, which draws on a new interview with Marr, and makes a subtle case for The Smiths as Irish-English, or 'in-between'.

For more on this topic, see http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/books/irish-blood-pumps-new-heart-into-english-music-154482.html OR http://theknockingshop.blogspot.com/2011/06/irish-blood-english-heart.html

 

[Anonymous]

It's kind of like how the people from the Jersey Shore Scene are "Italian."

 

[Anonymous]

1. The Irish Times article and the book it draws on don't claim The Smiths as Irish, but as Irish-English, which is how Morrissey and Marr see themselves (e.g. as 'Mancunian-Irish', or 'one of us on both sides'). The book in question does not claim The Smiths for Ireland; it sees them as born in England of Irish descent. It is clearly possible to grow up in England with parents from somewhere else and feel partly attached to that 'somewhere else'. This is certainly the case with The Smiths (ask Marr and Moz).

2. Nationality doesn't, or shouldn't, come into everything, but if you were second-generation Irish in England in the 1970s and 80s, the issue of nationality was something that you were forced to consider, whether you liked it or not. Also, The Smiths and Morrissey have engaged with issues of nationality in their work (e.g. 'The Queen Is Dead', 'Irish Blood, English Heart'), so it is relevant to these artists (they brought it into things, not the critics or fans).

3. It is quite possible for people born in Ireland to parents from somewhere else to be seen as belonging to that somewhere else. What about the Duke of Wellington? Or even Jonathan Swift.

4. It seems to annoy certain people who are invested in The Smiths' Englishness to see their band being re-positioned as part Irish. But this is the truth of the band's story. Read the chapter on The Smiths in this book, which draws on a new interview with Marr, and makes a subtle case for The Smiths as Irish-English, or 'in-between'.

For more on this topic, see http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/books/irish-blood-pumps-new-heart-into-english-music-154482.html OR http://theknockingshop.blogspot.com/2011/06/irish-blood-english-heart.html

I don't disagree with that, im not english anyway. I am saying according to certain irish people, not just this article, i didn't mean what the individual who was born where ever thinks, i mean being claimed by other irish people.

 

[IBEH]

I don't disagree with that, im not english anyway. I am saying according to certain irish people, not just this article, i didn't mean what the individual who was born where ever thinks, i mean being claimed by other irish people.

Check out this book on the topic: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467128533&pf_rd_i=468294

Glad you agree with those points. (And none of the points implied that you were English). The Irish in Ireland have often been reluctant to see the second generation (in England) as Irish. Lots of second generation people on visiting Ireland have had their Irishness challenged. Even when The Pogues first visited Ireland in the mid-80s, they were seen as "suspect English interlopers making unwelcome incursions into Irish culture". This was upsetting for some of the London-Irish members of the band, who saw themselves as partly (or largely) Irish. So the suggestion that the Irish in Ireland are quick to claim the second generation as Irish is not right. In recent years there has been more of a trend in Ireland to see the second generation as Irish, but even here they are not seen as 'island-Irish' but as 'diaspora Irish', which is different.

 

[Anonymous]

To IBEH - nice to see some intelligent and well argued points on here. It matters little whether people fall over themselves to agree, that's not the point. It's the reasoned argument which so often is lacking in this section of the site.

I award you your choice of rose - red, white or even blue.

But not ceramic - that is reserved for the head of another.

 

[Anonymous]

Morrissey is who he is; an English man to Irish parents. It's part of him, and, therefore, important to anybody who wishes to understand the meanings and inspirations of his songs.

 

[Anonymous]

Since the demise of the irish economy you hear very little about the irish in general. Pub crisis that has reduced number of people that frequent public bars has also had the effect that the irish culture has been forgotten. In that sense it is natural that the irish mediamen are trying to spark a new irish revival by lifting up famous people with irish links.
It is a sort of nationalism and racism that would be criticised if it was about european whites from the european mainland. Irish patriotism is "cute" and media lets it pass by without criticism. I have nothing against the irish at all and they are fabulous people but I think that they are struggling now as they have become less interesting as a cultural spectacle.
The modern days have finally, or so it seems, placed the irish in an awkward position where their influence on modern culture is non-existant. The demise of Celtic Football Club and the rise of the EDL explains why this is the case. Manchester as a cultural city is witnessing a big change in identity and tonight even their powerful football clubs were condemned to the backyards of the medias future interest.
Meaningless Manchester misery does not interest the modern day man.

 

[IBEH]

In the book, Irish Blood, English Heart, Marr says: "I hate nationalism of any kind. I feel absolutely nothing when I see the Union Jack, except repulsion ... and I don’t feel Irish either. I’m Mancunian-Irish". And Morrissey says: "I had the best of both places [Dublin and Manchester] and the best of both countries [Ireland and England]. I’m ‘one of us’ on both sides". This suggests hybridity, more than nationalism.

See http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467128533&pf_rd_i=468294

 

[Johnny Barleycorn]

I feel absolutely nothing when I see the Union Jack, except repulsion ..

I unfollowed Marr on Twitter because he kept coming out with that sort of achingly right-on bullshit.

 

[Peterb]

I unfollowed Marr on Twitter because he kept coming out with that sort of achingly right-on bullshit.

Hey Johnny Barleycorn, I think you're being unfair to Marr. I am of a similar generation, and believe me, in 70's and 80's Britain, the union jack represented nothing except right wing thuggery. The flag was used almost exclusivley by the far right. Ofcourse, as of late, with the likes of Billy Bragg and, indeed our Moz, there has been a movement to reclaim the imagery of english nationalism but for those of us who lived through the 80's, the initial response is hard to dispense with.