It’s not about politics

[Lucifer Sam]

It is really interesting that when the USA and the UK invaded Iraq - and they stopped counting the bodies - the left was not calling it genocide. The left screamed 'illegal war'.
Russia has invaded Ukraine. I don't see the left calling it genocide in Ukraine. I don't see the left marching every week or taking over university campuses to condemn the genocide in China. Or the genocide in Syria. Or the act of genocide that took place on 7th October. Instead, it's Hamas has the right to attack the invader.
The USA and the UK bomb the Houthis. No one shouts genocide.
But when Israel invades Gaza - let's throw the word 'genocide' at them, over and over again, and really rub their Jewish faces in it.

I would agree with you that 20 or 30,000 people killed out of a population of 2 million is hardly much of a genocide. Probably "ethnic cleansing" is a more accurate term for the Israeli mission in Gaza, since they basically want it uninhabited or scarcely inhabited or settled by Israelis. Whether the Gazans die or leave, Israel will be satisfied as long as they're mostly gone—or else living there in such extreme squalor and malnutrition that it really would be the kind of "open air concentration camp" it has sometimes been described as.

Given the context of Israel's history, you should be able to appreciate why "genocide" is a more fitting shorthand for Israel/Gaza than it is with many of the instances you mentioned above.

 

[Born to Harangue]

“It’s literally fine. The only difference between us is skin colour & we all bleed red. Wratten tarnishing Morrissey’s reputation on a blog that was read by seven people is what we should be focusing on.” - Malarkey

 

[Mozzer1980]

Now everything seems clear

 

[goinghome]

“It’s literally fine. The only difference between us is skin colour & we all bleed red. Wratten tarnishing Morrissey’s reputation on a blog that was read by seven people is what we should be focusing on.” - Malarkey

Malarkey's right. You're hitting on people, most of whom are caught between scary geopolitical impacts over which they have no power.

Milei and the CIA: now Israeli historian Ilan Pappé has been detained and interrogated by FBI -

'Dark Times': Israeli Historian Ilan Pappé Detained, Interrogated by FBI | Common Dreams

"The good news is—actions like this by the USA or European countries taken under pressure from the pro-Israeli lobby or Israel itself smell of sheer panic and desperation," the renowned author said.

www.commondreams.org

 

[goinghome]

Jesus, goinghome, that post delves new depths of absurdity. Why is it you are an intelligent and reasonable man, and then on this one topic you go full bat shit crazy? The Irish Famine was not the same as the Holocaust. Cancer is not the same as the Holocaust.

Of course all these multiple massacres differ in aspects from each other, but the drive is similar; eliminate first, ask later, for some kind of gain. Very good point about omissions re. Iraq, Syria etc, though speaking of twenty or thirty thousand not mattering, as Lucifer Sam does, dehumanises in the extreme.

Did you know that in 1910, Terence MacSwiney wrote a play called The Holocaust? - https://www.dib.ie/biography/macswiney-terence-james-a5297

I wonder if that fact will be redacted soon?!

 

[Born to Harangue]

Malarkey's right.

There are almost no circumstances in which the statement “Malarkey’s right” is ever true. The blame isn’t being put on the people for being here, it’s being put on the politicians/policies/system that brought them here. We shouldn’t be living under this system of endless immigration for short-term economic gains; the long term effects are going to be disastrous. If you look at my post and see it simply as someone “hitting on” powerless people (which isn’t true), and you feel the need to shout down and contradict dissenting voices, then you’re part of the problem.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

though speaking of twenty or thirty thousand not mattering, as Lucifer Sam does, dehumanises in the extreme.

When did I ever say the deaths of 20/30,000 Gazans "don't matter"? Of course they matter. I've routinely said Israel is guilty of war crimes and ethnic cleansing, and I also said genocide suffices as a rhetorical shorthand for the destruction in Gaza. I was just making the realistic point that killing ≈1.5% of a population is more difficult to qualify as a genocide than say, the ≈20% of European Jews killed in the Holocaust, being conservative on the numbers. How would you quantify genocide?

 

[gashonthenail]

I would agree with you that 20 or 30,000 people killed out of a population of 2 million is hardly much of a genocide. Probably "ethnic cleansing" is a more accurate term for the Israeli mission in Gaza, since they basically want it uninhabited or scarcely inhabited or settled by Israelis. Whether the Gazans die or leave, Israel will be satisfied as long as they're mostly gone—or else living there in such extreme squalor and malnutrition that it really would be the kind of "open air concentration camp" it has sometimes been described as.

Given the context of Israel's history, you should be able to appreciate why "genocide" is a more fitting shorthand for Israel/Gaza than it is with many of the instances you mentioned above.

We only have Hamas to tell us how many civilians have been killed.
Of all the instances mentioned, the genocide in Xinjiang is almost certainly the one for which the term 'genocide' is most 'fitting', to use your word: forced contraception and sterilisation of women, internment and slave labour of both men and women, and cultural indoctrination of children. That is genocide. If we leave China to it, soon there won't be any Uyghurs left. And yet, no weekly marches, no student sit ins.
There is a reason why white, middle class students like shouting 'genocide' at Jews. It's to remind every one of them that in their view it's a shame any Jews made it out of the death camps alive. Hitler is alive and well on the left of politics. It's where he started from, after all.

 

[gashonthenail]

This is worth a watch.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

We only have Hamas to tell us how many civilians have been killed.
Of all the instances mentioned, the genocide in Xinjiang is almost certainly the one for which the term 'genocide' is most 'fitting', to use your word: forced contraception and sterilisation of women, internment and slave labour of both men and women, and cultural indoctrination of children. That is genocide. If we leave China to it, soon there won't be any Uyghurs left. And yet, no weekly marches, no student sit ins.
There is a reason why white, middle class students like shouting 'genocide' at Jews. It's to remind every one of them that in their view it's a shame any Jews made it out of the death camps alive. Hitler is alive and well on the left of politics. It's where he started from, after all.

Normally you are a supremely insightful poster, gashonthenail, but to be honest with you, I think it’s pretty rich that you would call goinghome "an intelligent guy who’s gone batshit crazy" on this one issue and then turn around and accuse the student protestors of being little Hitlers who wish no Jew had been spared the Holocaust. That is bonkers. For one thing, there are Jewish students participating in the protests, and for another, the anti-Zionism of the student protestors is primarily motivated by anti-West, anti-colonial-settler sentiment. They mainly see the Palestinians as the victimized BIPOC people and the Israelis as the oppressive whites. It’s not "exterminate the Jews" Nazism; this isn't Germany 1938. When you frame things so absurdly, it’s as easy to dismiss you as it is to dismiss the lazy Zionist jargon that anyone who isn’t pro-Israel is "pro-Hamas."

We’ve been over the "where is the outrage over China" thing a dozen times. And if it’s not China/Uyghurs, it’s Russia/Ukraine. The salient difference is that the West is not subsidizing and supporting China and Russia in their efforts.

 

[gashonthenail]

Normally you are a supremely insightful poster, gashonthenail, but to be honest with you, I think it’s pretty rich that you would call goinghome "an intelligent guy who’s gone batshit crazy" on this one issue and then turn around and accuse the student protestors of being little Hitlers who wish no Jew had been spared the Holocaust. That is bonkers. For one thing, there are Jewish students participating in the protests, and for another, the anti-Zionism of the student protestors is primarily motivated by anti-West, anti-colonial-settler sentiment. They mainly see the Palestinians as the victimized BIPOC people and the Israelis as the oppressive whites. It’s not "exterminate the Jews" Nazism; this isn't Germany 1938. When you frame things so absurdly, it’s as easy to dismiss you as it is to dismiss the lazy Zionist jargon that anyone who isn’t pro-Israel is "pro-Hamas."

We’ve been over the "where is the outrage over China" thing a dozen times. And if it’s not China/Uyghurs, it’s Russia/Ukraine. The salient difference is that the West is not subsidizing and supporting China and Russia in their efforts.

That's not the point I am making. We can all agree that the scenes coming out of Gaza are horrific. And the scenes coming out of Ukraine are horrific. As are the scenes described by human rights organisations in Syria, and Xinjiang, where no Western journalists or cameras are allowed, of course.
And yet why do the student protesters not seem to take delight in screaming 'genocide' about these other atrocities happening in the world? Why do they take such delight in screaming 'Go back to Poland' at Jews? That is my point. To deny that some of the venom and the passion on their side is not driven by hatred of Jews is just blinkered.
The funding issue is irrelevant. If the USA and UK stopped funding Israel tomorrow, I do not think any of the sit ins would stop. The funding isn't the issue. Jews owning the land of Israel is the issue.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

That's not the point I am making. We can all agree that the scenes coming out of Gaza are horrific. And the scenes coming out of Ukraine are horrific. As are the scenes described by human rights organisations in Syria, and Xinjiang, where no Western journalists or cameras are allowed, of course.
And yet why do the student protesters not seem to take delight in screaming 'genocide' about these other atrocities happening in the world? Why do they take such delight in screaming 'Go back to Poland' at Jews? That is my point. To deny that some of the venom and the passion on their side is not driven by hatred of Jews is just blinkered.

As I said, it's mainly because those other examples are not Western-backed settler-vanity projects. What you need to establish is that these protestors would hate Jews if the modern state of Israel had never come into existence, which I absolutely don't think they would. This is not unmitigated traditional anti-Semitism, hating Jews for the fact of their being Jewish. This is fervent anti-Zionism that gets uglier and nastier corresponding to how badly Israel behaves, and naturally it will pick up some rawness and anti-Semitism. The original stated goal of Zionism was a safe haven for the Jews. That has been a demonstrable abject failure, and now because of Israel even Western countries are becoming less safe for Jews.

The funding issue is irrelevant. If the USA and UK stopped funding Israel tomorrow, I do not think any of the sit ins would stop. The funding isn't the issue. Jews owning the land of Israel is the issue.

I think we should stop the funding and find out. Although, obviously, Jews owning the land of Israel cannot persist without the funding, so this is just chicken-or-egg.

 

[gashonthenail]

As I said, it's mainly because those other examples are not Western-backed settler-vanity projects. What you need to establish is that these protestors would hate Jews if the modern state of Israel had never come into existence, which I absolutely don't think they would. This is not unmitigated traditional anti-Semitism, hating Jews for the fact of their being Jewish. This is fervent anti-Zionism that gets uglier and nastier corresponding to how badly Israel behaves, and naturally it will pick up some rawness and anti-Semitism. The original stated goal of Zionism was a safe haven for the Jews. That has been a demonstrable abject failure, and now because of Israel even Western countries are becoming less safe for Jews.



I think we should stop the funding and find out. Although, obviously, Jews owning the land of Israel cannot persist without the funding, so this is just chicken-or-egg.

The creation of the state of Israel wasn't a 'Western-backed settler-vanity project'. In fact the UK tried very hard to limit and restrict Jewish migration to Palestine. The UK also lost many lives to Jewish terrorism, such as the King David Hotel bombing. The partition of mandatory Palestine and the creation of the state of Israel was an attempt by the UN to create peace in the region. Countries voting for the plan included the USSR and Eastern bloc countries. China abstained. What escalated the conflict was the attempt to wipe Israel off the face of the map in the 1948 war. It was that war, and later wars, that made Israel an important part of a wider geo-political conflict between the West and the Middle East, especially Iran, and Western backing has increasingly become a factor, in that I agree.

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lucifer Sam]

The creation of the state of Israel wasn't a 'Western-backed settler-vanity project'. In fact the UK tried very hard to limit and restrict Jewish migration to Palestine. The UK also lost many lives to Jewish terrorism, such as the King David Hotel bombing. The partition of mandatory Palestine and the creation of the state of Israel was an attempt by the UN to create peace in the region. Countries voting for the plan included the USSR and Eastern bloc countries. China abstained. What escalated the conflict was the attempt to wipe Israel off the face of the map in the 1948 war. It was that war, and later wars, that made Israel an important part of a wider geo-political conflict between the West and the Middle East, especially Iran, and Western backing has increasingly become a factor, in that I agree.

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

England was going back and forth on the creation of a Jewish state ever since the Balfour declaration, always cynically according to what might serve their own interests. All we need to see is that the Arabs, as you rightly point out, wanted Israel off the map (and why wouldn't they?) since its foundation by violence and displacement of Palestinians in 1948. If that wasn't a portent of the Zionist folly, what more obvious sign could you want? Israel's continued existence depends on the continued displacement, oppression, and subsequent radicalization of Arabs, and that was always going to be a recipe for a lack of both Middle East peace and Jewish safety. It was a mistake then and it's a mistake now.

 

[goinghome]

Now everything seems clear

Jerry Seinfeld's 2024 Duke Commencement Address makes more sense!

 

[nicky wire's legs]

irans president is dead!!

an iranian man i work with who is soooooooo nice and lovely was all happy today about the news. apparently people in iran are celebrating and setting off fireworks. hopefully this will mean something good for their country. iranians deserve so much better.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

Whatever, honey bunny!

 

[Lucifer Sam]

an iranian man i work with who is soooooooo nice and lovely was all happy today about the news. apparently people in iran are celebrating and setting off fireworks. hopefully this will mean something good for their country. iranians deserve so much better.

Iran is majority Muslim, though. In your view, doesn't that make them all girl-groomers and boy-bummers? I'm surprised you think they deserve anything other than death by Israeli nukes.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

Iran is majority Muslim, though. In your view, doesn't that make them all girl-groomers and boy-bummers? I'm surprised you think they deserve anything other than death by Israeli nukes.

They're not very strict Muslims though. My coworker is "muslim" but his wife doesn't wear a headscarf, they don't pray a thousand times a day and they celebrate Christmas. Iran used to be a much more liberal, glamorous society and I imagine all the residents would like to go back to those days. Iranian women are too beautiful to wear headscarves.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

They're not very strict Muslims though. My coworker is "muslim" but his wife doesn't wear a headscarf, they don't pray a thousand times a day and they celebrate Christmas. Iran used to be a much more liberal, glamorous society and I imagine all the residents would like to go back to those days. Iranian women are too beautiful to wear headscarves.

That’s great, but I’m not a strict Muslim either. In fact I’m not even a believing or practicing Muslim, yet you keep coming at me with all the girl-grooming, boy-bumming, gay-killing stuff which are totally against my principles. I think you have a double standard.