Let's review the evidence. Is Morrissey racist?

[Worm]

I think we are speaking on two different planes here. You are speaking of why it shouldn't have made the impact. I am giving reasons as to why it did.

Should it have made an impact? Hmmm, I don't know. It's a great line.

I'm saying that that quote, stuck in the middle of an interview, created a big fuss. It also created copy. And that's what people focus on. Most won't wade through an article by Simon Armitage (who?) but most people will read

"Morrissey reignites racism row by calling Chinese a 'subspecies'"

and

"For almost three decades, indie rock icon Morrissey has made almost as many enemies as devoted fans willing to hang on his every melancholy-drenched lyric. Described by one high court judge as "devious, truculent and unreliable", the former Smiths frontman is no stranger to controversy and criticism. But tomorrow he reignites a simmering row about his views on race in an interview in Guardian Weekend magazine, in which he describes Chinese people as a "subspecies" because of their treatment of animals.

Morrissey, a vegetarian and animal rights advocate who last year abandoned the stage at the Coachella festival in California because of the smell of cooking meat, described the treatment of animals in China as "absolutely horrific", referring to recent news stories about animals in Chinese circuses and zoos. He told interviewer Simon Armitage: "Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies.""

You can talk about why it shouldn't have mattered but all that is academic - it did. It did because of the way I have explained in the last few posts is the reason why it did and the 'let's make Shanghai rain like Hiroshima" line didn't.

Whoops see below. *snip*

 

[Worm]

His claim is that their flaw is much more insidious and unavoidable.

No. Not if the claim isn't taken literally. That's what we've been saying. You're making it sound like his considered, settled opinion is that Chinese people have a flaw which is "insidious and unavoidable". Is that really his claim?

Question: tomorrow, if the Chinese government banned animal cruelty and took serious measures to prevent it within its borders, do you think Morrissey would praise China, or do you think he would persist in his belief that the Chinese have an "insidious and unavoidable" flaw?

 

[Worm]

I think we are speaking on two different planes here. You are speaking of why it shouldn't have made the impact. I am giving reasons as to why it did.

Should it have made an impact? Hmmm, I don't know. It's a great line.

I'm saying that that quote, stuck in the middle of an interview, created a big fuss. It also created copy. And that's what people focus on. Most won't wade through an article by Simon Armitage (who?) but most people will read

"Morrissey reignites racism row by calling Chinese a 'subspecies'"

and

"For almost three decades, indie rock icon Morrissey has made almost as many enemies as devoted fans willing to hang on his every melancholy-drenched lyric. Described by one high court judge as "devious, truculent and unreliable", the former Smiths frontman is no stranger to controversy and criticism. But tomorrow he reignites a simmering row about his views on race in an interview in Guardian Weekend magazine, in which he describes Chinese people as a "subspecies" because of their treatment of animals.

Morrissey, a vegetarian and animal rights advocate who last year abandoned the stage at the Coachella festival in California because of the smell of cooking meat, described the treatment of animals in China as "absolutely horrific", referring to recent news stories about animals in Chinese circuses and zoos. He told interviewer Simon Armitage: "Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies.""

You can talk about why it shouldn't have mattered but all that is academic - it did. It did because of the way I have explained in the last few posts is the reason why it did and the 'let's make Shanghai rain like Hiroshima" line didn't.

Okay, but that's not even in question here. Nobody disputes that Morrissey's statement was offensive. Nobody disputes that many people were offended. I find the remark grossly offensive, and I'm not Chinese.

Look, Morrissey made a remark which smacked of racism. We all get it. The question is simple: was the remark a bad choice of words, or did he mean it? That's all I'm speaking to. That's what this thread is about. Start a thread called "How did most people react to Morrissey's 'subspecies' comment" and you're going to have 100% agreement on every point. It was a stupid, offensive thing to say and I've no doubt that many were angry at him for it.

I also have no doubt that the vast majority of people will only read the teaser article and form hoplessly crude opinions about what type of person Morrissey is based on scant evidence. I guess if he's going to do that to the Chinese, from watching a news report, he deserves such treatment in kind. Fair play there. It's just that I'd expect more understanding of him on his own fan site. I've spent twenty years reading Morrissey interviews and while I nearly choked on my Corn Flakes when I read the "subspecies" remark I also realized, fairly quickly, that it's business as usual for him. Not because he's racist, but because he can't stop putting his foot in his damn mouth.

 

[Media Whore]

Whereas the NME article was defamatory.......and thats why he's sueing?

Yes.

No. Not if the claim isn't taken literally. That's what we've been saying. You're making it sound like his considered, settled opinion is that Chinese people have a flaw which is "insidious and unavoidable". Is that really his claim?

But the claim was taken literally and hence the brouhaha. Again, you're talking about should. I'm talking about why there was a fuss.

Question: tomorrow, if the Chinese government banned animal cruelty and took serious measures to prevent it within its borders, do you think Morrissey would praise China, or do you think he would persist in his belief that the Chinese have an "insidious and unavoidable" flaw?

I don't know and I don't care.

Okay, but that's not even in question here. Nobody disputes that Morrissey's statement was offensive. Nobody disputes that many people were offended. I find the remark grossly offensive, and I'm not Chinese.

Look, Morrissey made a remark which smacked of racism. We all get it. The question is simple: was the remark a bad choice of words, or did he mean it? That's all I'm speaking to. That's what this thread is about. Start a thread called "How did most people react to Morrissey's 'subspecies' comment" and you're going to have 100% agreement on every point. It was a stupid, offensive thing to say and I've no doubt that many were angry at him for it.

I also have no doubt that the vast majority of people will only read the teaser article and form hoplessly crude opinions about what type of person Morrissey is based on scant evidence. I guess if he's going to do that to the Chinese, from watching a news report, he deserves such treatment in kind. Fair play there. It's just that I'd expect more understanding of him on his own fan site. I've spent twenty years reading Morrissey interviews and while I nearly choked on my Corn Flakes when I read the "subspecies" remark I also realized, fairly quickly, that it's business as usual for him. Not because he's racist, but because he can't stop putting his foot in his damn mouth.

You asked why the other quote about wishing a nuclear bomb to descend on China didn't cause a splash. I have offered reasons. You've introduced a line of questioning, I've responded to it and now you've called strawman. That's not particularly reasonable unless you were deliberately setting up a strawman argument in which case, I fell for it.

As to expecting better from his fan site, maybe you should start a poll. I think those who argue that his words should be taken seriously are in the minority. Other than Peterb who remains unconvinced in this thread for his own purposes, very few people registered on the board would claim Morrissey to be racist.

 

[Worm]

I'm talking about why there was a fuss.

Why are you doing that? Did it seem to you that there was a need to explain the brouhaha to us? Did anyone here appear confused about why the remark caused a stir?

As to expecting better from his fan site, maybe you should start a poll. I think those who argue that his words should be taken seriously are in the minority. Other than Peterb who remains unconvinced in this thread for his own purposes, very few people registered on the board would claim Morrissey to be racist.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You say that very few people on this board believe Morrissey is a racist. And you're not really debating about whether Morrissey is racist or not. So...you helicoptered into the middle of this discussion to clarify how the word "subspecies" might be offensive when applied to a group of people?

EDIT: LOL, okay, I went back and read your first post. If you're trying to make a distinction between "China" and "Chinese"...sigh...fine, I guess. He called China "barbaric". A nuclear device does not distinguish between fur traders and innocent civilians. But fine. Point taken. There's a difference between the two comments. Let me say instead: there should have been outrage-- not as much outrage as there was over the 'subspecies' comment, but still outrage-- and there wasn't. I submit to you that there was no outrage partly because the first comment was maybe less offensive than the second one-- yes, okay-- but also, more importantly, because most of us know that Morrissey overstates almost everything, and that both comments demonstrate a ludicrously-exaggerated level of scorn for animal abusers in China.

If we're going to get into that kind of distinction, however, we should also note that prefacing a blanket judgment against an entire nation full of people with "Did you see the thing on TV last night...?" is perhaps good cause for not taking the remark to follow all that seriously, especially when the journalist immediately goes on to explain that Morrissey is more or less full of shit in all his utterances-- and this is a conclusion one may draw whether one is a Morrissey fan or not.

 

[smiler]

Why are you doing that? Did it seem to you that there was a need to explain the brouhaha to us? Did anyone here appear confused about why the remark caused a stir?



Okay, so let me get this straight. You say that very few people on this board believe Morrissey is a racist. And you're not really debating about whether Morrissey is racist or not. So...you helicoptered into the middle of this discussion to clarify how the word "subspecies" might be offensive when applied to a group of people?

EDIT: LOL, okay, I went back and read your first post. If you're trying to make a distinction between "China" and "Chinese"...sigh...fine, I guess. He called China "barbaric". A nuclear device does not distinguish between fur traders and innocent civilians. But fine. Point taken. There's a difference between the two comments. Let me say instead: there should have been outrage-- not as much outrage as there was over the 'subspecies' comment, but still outrage-- and there wasn't.

If we're going to get into that kind of distinction, however, we should also note that prefacing a blanket judgment against an entire nation full of people with "Did you see the thing on TV last night...?" is perhaps good cause for not taking the remark to follow all that seriously, especially when the journalist immediately goes on to explain that Morrissey is more or less full of shit in all his utterances-- and this is a conclusion one may draw whether one is a Morrissey fan or not.

I am confused. I think this thread may have gone up its own arse? We are all on the same side (Morrissey isn't racist - agreed.) and are now just arguing over semantics. This thread didn't really present the evidence but perhaps that is because there isn't really any........END THREAD.

 

[Worm]

I am confused. I think this thread may have gone up its own arse? We are all on the same side (Morrissey isn't racist - agreed.) and are now just arguing over semantics. This thread didn't really present the evidence but perhaps that is because there isn't really any........END THREAD.

Agreed it's up its own arse, but STRONGLY disagree there isn't evidence here proving Morrissey isn't racist. I don't accept that we have no evidence he isn't racist and neither should any other Morrissey fan. There's plenty, plenty of evidence refuting the racism claim. Like I said, I wish the fans didn't have to trot out the evidence, because naturally I'd hope his lack of racism would be obvious and self-evident. But we do. And the facts are there to back up a strong defense that he isn't racist. Looking at his total career, his record is clean: the notion that a handful of dumb comments makes his true opinions about race "dangerously ambiguous" is complete and utter bullshit. He isn't Bono. You have to use your intellect to understand him. You have to do some mental knitting. Isn't that precisely the reason we love his music?

In arguing this, I'm not saying that all Morrissey fans should think exactly as I do. I'm saying that any "fan" who thinks Morrissey is a racist should no longer call herself a fan. Not that I care, but, I mean, it's rather bizarre, isn't it? Why the hell would anyone be a fan of a racist pop singer? If someone decides he's racist, why would they come here? How could you enjoy "I Know It's Over" or "Hairdresser On Fire" or any other Morrissey song knowing he hates blacks, Chinese, Pakistanis, and so forth? Makes no sense.

Unless the fan in question is a troll stirring up trouble.

 

[smiler]

Agreed it's up its own arse, but STRONGLY disagree there isn't evidence here proving Morrissey isn't racist. I don't accept that we have no evidence he isn't racist and neither should any other Morrissey fan. There's plenty, plenty of evidence refuting the racism claim. Like I said, I wish the fans didn't have to trot out the evidence, because naturally I'd hope his lack of racism would be obvious and self-evident. But we do. And the facts are there to back up a strong defense that he isn't racist. Looking at his total career, his record is clean: the notion that a handful of dumb comments makes his true opinions about race "dangerously ambiguous" is complete and utter bullshit. He isn't Bono. You have to use your intellect to understand him. You have to do some mental knitting. Isn't that precisely the reason we love his music?

In arguing this, I'm not saying that all Morrissey fans should think exactly as I do. I'm saying that any "fan" who thinks Morrissey is a racist should no longer call herself a fan. Not that I care, but, I mean, it's rather bizarre, isn't it? Why the hell would anyone be a fan of a racist pop singer? If someone decides he's racist, why would they come here? How could you enjoy "I Know It's Over" or "Hairdresser On Fire" or any other Morrissey song knowing he hates blacks, Chinese, Pakistanis, and so forth? Makes no sense.

Unless the fan in question is a troll stirring up trouble.

"Unless the fan in question is a troll stirring up trouble." - I honestly think this is the key. We know Morrissey inspires devotion and sometimes that devotion becomes delousional and fans begin to project on their idol. Then inevitably Morrissey unknowingly somehow "lets them down" and the fan turns on him. Often they do so with all their might and spite and sometimes for years. For those of us who have followed Morrissey for a long time it has become a clear "super fan cycle". It has been evident from the begining, can be set off by almost anything and it ends in the super-fan becoming the anti-fan who can't let go. Unfortunately it seems the owner of this site and some of the moderators are stuck on the down swing of the super-fan cycle.

Morrissey realises all this of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXj3yEn2oBc

 

[DAVIE]

Morrissey is weird and that's why we love him!
We never know when he is serious or when he is being silly, but that is Morrissey for you!
I wish whenever he spoke he said "and I'm being serious now..." it would help me especially.

 

[Peterb]

Morrissey's comments and song lyrics about race are problematic. There's plenty to discuss, even though, at the end of the day, I am certain Morrissey is not a racist.

I find it curious, though, that some fans like you keep asking the question about racism over and over again. You keep refusing to draw any concrete conclusions, yet you keep the issue lingering despite plenty of "evidence" that Morrissey isn't racist. You have this air of of having an open mind, but I think it's starting to become plain that your "open mind" is just a pretext for reiterating the charge that Morrissey is racist. Above, for example, your response to one of my posts claimed that Morrissey had made "a racist attack against the Chinese", which is not at all certain and is, in fact, the whole point of this debate. Do you know what the wife-beater argument is, Peter? The classic form is "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's a loaded question that implies guilt in its premise, regardless of how the question is answered. Basically, you keep asking, with innocence that looks increasingly disingenuous, "Do Morrissey's racist attacks against the Chinese make him a racist?" I think you know that merely asking the question is a smear on Morrissey's name. It's kind of wearing thin.

Hi Worm, Look, this is a site where we discuss Morrissey. I find this issue interesting and like to exchange ideas (not make personal insults). No, I cannot come up with a concrete conclusion because I havn't got one. And how can I smear his name? I'm nobody. The fact that Morrissey has used the language of the racist and that his statements have added to the levels of intolerance in this country is an issue.
Whether you like it or not, this race question has clung to Morrissey for years and it is not only me who continues to raise the issue. The question is loaded but Morrissey has no one else to blame but himself.
You are wrong about my position, I would love him to distance himself from all this nonsense.
Anyway, I notice that since I last posted you and Smiler have been most prolific so I will work my way through your posts which I am sure will be most illuminating and possibly undercut the above.

 

[Peterb]

After reading through all the posts it appears that I have been cast as a troll and not a fan. May I clarify why I started this thread?
My hope was that all the evidence would be laid bare and that it would show incontrovertably that dear Moz was not a racist.
By drawing out all his detractors maybe we could see their arguments as weak. My insistance in not being convinced was merely because I found much of the arguments put forward as weak.
I thought MediaWhore the clearest and most persuasive.

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

Hi Peter.

I can understand your desire to have Morrissey clear his name, but this really isn’t possible. He’s already declared categorically that he isn’t racist (describing racism as ‘beyond common sense’) but this appears to have done nothing to appease his detractors. Proving one isn’t something is extremely difficult.

Really, it’s up to the detractors to prove Morrissey is racist, something they’ve entirely failed to do.

As for Morrissey’s comments adding ‘to the levels of intolerance in this country’, that’s a hell of an accusation. The UK is now more intolerant than it was prior to Morrissey’s remarks? Do you honestly believe that to be the case? Where’s your evidence?

 

[Peterb]

Hi Peter.

I can understand your desire to have Morrissey clear his name, but this really isn’t possible. He’s already declared categorically that he isn’t racist (describing racism as ‘beyond common sense’) but this appears to have done nothing to appease his detractors. Proving one isn’t something is extremely difficult.

Really, it’s up to the detractors to prove Morrissey is racist, something they’ve entirely failed to do.

As for Morrissey’s comments adding ‘to the levels of intolerance in this country’, that’s a hell of an accusation. The UK is now more intolerant than it was prior to Morrissey’s remarks? Do you honestly believe that to be the case? Where’s your evidence?

Hey Crookedlittlevein,
Yeah, well maybe I put it a little strong. What I meant was that if a public figure makes racist comments, it certainly will not help the situation. I certainly have no evidence. But I take your point. I think maybe I should clam up and get a life.

 

[iamdamosuzuki]

I don't see what all the fuss is about,tbh.

If you go down the road of not appreciating art by people on this basis, you end up watching Jeremy Hardy videos and listening to Coldplay. Which would drive you to some sort of horrible crime anyway. Morrissey is a complex, immature, selfish, human (at times) lyrical genius. He's a very flawed human being, but aren't we all.


You can't prove he's not racist, but why bother anyway. I doubt you'll be going out for dinner with him anytime soon.

 

[Peterb]

I don't see what all the fuss is about,tbh.

If you go down the road of not appreciating art by people on this basis, you end up watching Jeremy Hardy videos and listening to Coldplay. Which would drive you to some sort of horrible crime anyway. Morrissey is a complex, immature, selfish, human (at times) lyrical genius. He's a very flawed human being, but aren't we all.


You can't prove he's not racist, but why bother anyway. I doubt you'll be going out for dinner with him anytime soon.

It's a discussion forum. It's what you do, ie, discuss things about Morrissey. Atleast this subject has legs. Better than talking about his hair.

 

[smiler]

It's a discussion forum. It's what you do, ie, discuss things about Morrissey. Atleast this subject has legs. Better than talking about his hair.

I don't think you are a troll and wouldn't accused you of that just for starting this discussion, far from it, you are in fact quite right, it is interesting and relavent, but unfortunately (due to the poor moderators/moderation policy on this site) if you do create a thread like this (which will no doubt attract slanderous troll types) you do have a responsibility to police the thread a little to ensure it forfills its Raison d'être. The thread is after all an invitation to review the evidence, so if you sincerely want to do that i would expect you to try and make sure that only full and proper quotes are presented and those that don't meet that standard are clearly challenged. Meaning hearsay is clearly presented as hearsay and "evidence" isn't twisted or just plain invented.

 

[DAVIE]

Peter is no troll, so leave him alone whoever is giving him abuse!

 

[Peterb]

I don't think you are a troll and wouldn't accused you of that just for starting this discussion, far from it, you are in fact quite right, it is interesting and relavent, but unfortunately (due to the poor moderators/moderation policy on this site) if you do create a thread like this (which will no doubt attract slanderous troll types) you do have a responsibility to police the thread a little to ensure it forfills its Raison d'être. The thread is after all an invitation to review the evidence, so if you sincerely want to do that i would expect you to try and make sure that only full and proper quotes are presented and those that don't meet that standard are clearly challenged. Meaning hearsay is clearly presented as hearsay and "evidence" isn't twisted or just plain invented.

OK Smiler, I take your point. I have not taken enough care or responsibility. Thanks for your positive words. I do enjoy the conversation though and really, I think Moz is one of the most important and excellent artists in recording history so I do not want to tarnish his name.

 

[Peterb]

Peter is no troll, so leave him alone whoever is giving him abuse!

Hey Davie, thanks a lot chum. 'You the man!'

 

[smiler]

OK Smiler, I take your point. I have not taken enough care or responsibility. Thanks for your positive words. I do enjoy the conversation though and really, I think Moz is one of the most important and excellent artists in recording history so I do not want to tarnish his name.

Hey peterb when i read my post back i sounded a bit up tight and pompous - sorry i never meant to come across like your mother giving you a lecture