Thank you, Sarah Palin, no to death panels
- Thread starter Theo
- Start date
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
!!!
This is exactly what I mean! I want someone like you running my country, ExpectingToFly!
I'm shocked at the amount of scaremongering going on in America. I keep hearing how they want to remain free, yet a lot of them continue to be so easily led by the media and the right. I thought being free meant you were able to think for yourself but obviously notPeople like Sarah Palin are scary. The fact that people like her can be taken so seriously, never mind adored, by a significant amount of people is frightening. I don't know what's more scary, the fact that people can be so stupid, or how people can be so heartless as to oppose a fair and equal system of healthcare, branding one that is, "evil".
!!!
This is exactly what I mean! I want someone like you running my country, ExpectingToFly!
Theo
Active Member
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
I didn't realize I was a "promise keeper". Must be your prejudices at work again.
As a point of fact, I rejected Sarah Palin for my vote last election and voted for Bob Barr. That doesn't mean I must demonize everything she says and does like you are obsessed with doing -- loyal, lock-step Democrat that you are.
I'm sorry, only grown-ups like Worm - who was a Jeremiah Wright apologist all election season - are allowed to voice their opinions on health care.
What debunking was that?
The "death panels" controversy is Obama's creation.
I realize that much of the mainstream media is little more than a propaganda arm of the Obama machine, but here's Obama in his own words in an interview (from the above link):
I guess that didn't make it on to the Rachel Maddow Show.
Yup, that would be President Obama, in April, talking about panels making end-of-life recommendations IN ORDER TO CUT COSTS. We're not allowed to raise questions about this? In a democracy, while an administration is attempting to ram health care legislation down our throats ASAP even though we haven't had the opportunity to digest and understand what they have in store for us (and even though those pushing for it have not had an opportunity to even read, let alone competently speak about, what they are pushing for), we are not allowed to raise concerns about this kind of talk and where it may lead?
In democracy according to people like Worm, I guess. He's one of the grown ups putting down all the silly children who are uneasy about the road we may be going down. Why doesn't everyone just shut up, smile, and accept whatever Obama and the Dems say we should pass, and not pay attention to the fact that even they don't know what they are planning on passing.
So, tell us, Worm. If there was nothing to worry about, why did they remove the language people have been raising "death panel" worries about? And note that they did so while stating that the language in question could lead to undesireable implementations down the line. That was their reason for removing that language! They admitted it! They should be THANKING Sarah Palin for highlighting this troubling language that they themselves have now conceded and confessed could lead to bad interpretations and implementations. They just confessed Sarah Palin was right!
And you are oblivious to this! You, the "grown up" wise one who carefully studies the news to debunk the "myths"! But they won't thank her because, actually, Sarah Palin BUSTED them!
In Worm's "grown up" vision of American democracy we are not allowed to raise concerns about how the language in proposed legislation will be interpretted and implemented? How embarassing for you that they have now conceded the language in question could lead to implementations like Palin was warning about.
Sarah Palin did us a service.
I didn't realize I was a "promise keeper". Must be your prejudices at work again.
As a point of fact, I rejected Sarah Palin for my vote last election and voted for Bob Barr. That doesn't mean I must demonize everything she says and does like you are obsessed with doing -- loyal, lock-step Democrat that you are.
I'm sorry, only grown-ups like Worm - who was a Jeremiah Wright apologist all election season - are allowed to voice their opinions on health care.
What debunking was that?
The "death panels" controversy is Obama's creation.
I realize that much of the mainstream media is little more than a propaganda arm of the Obama machine, but here's Obama in his own words in an interview (from the above link):
I guess that didn't make it on to the Rachel Maddow Show.
Yup, that would be President Obama, in April, talking about panels making end-of-life recommendations IN ORDER TO CUT COSTS. We're not allowed to raise questions about this? In a democracy, while an administration is attempting to ram health care legislation down our throats ASAP even though we haven't had the opportunity to digest and understand what they have in store for us (and even though those pushing for it have not had an opportunity to even read, let alone competently speak about, what they are pushing for), we are not allowed to raise concerns about this kind of talk and where it may lead?
In democracy according to people like Worm, I guess. He's one of the grown ups putting down all the silly children who are uneasy about the road we may be going down. Why doesn't everyone just shut up, smile, and accept whatever Obama and the Dems say we should pass, and not pay attention to the fact that even they don't know what they are planning on passing.
So, tell us, Worm. If there was nothing to worry about, why did they remove the language people have been raising "death panel" worries about? And note that they did so while stating that the language in question could lead to undesireable implementations down the line. That was their reason for removing that language! They admitted it! They should be THANKING Sarah Palin for highlighting this troubling language that they themselves have now conceded and confessed could lead to bad interpretations and implementations. They just confessed Sarah Palin was right!
And you are oblivious to this! You, the "grown up" wise one who carefully studies the news to debunk the "myths"! But they won't thank her because, actually, Sarah Palin BUSTED them!
In Worm's "grown up" vision of American democracy we are not allowed to raise concerns about how the language in proposed legislation will be interpretted and implemented? How embarassing for you that they have now conceded the language in question could lead to implementations like Palin was warning about.
Sarah Palin did us a service.
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Theo
Active Member
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Your confusion is stemming for your own indoctrination by the media. Here in the USA, the mainstream media is 95% a lock-step propaganda arm of the Obama administration. Rush Limbaugh has started calling them the state media, and he has a point.
Sarah Palin was not my choice for Vice President. I didn't vote for the McCain ticket, though I'd have preferred McCain/Palin over the disaster we have now. I voted for Bob Barr as a protest against two weak major-party tickets.
But Sarah Palin, as a Vice Presidential candidate, had better qualifications for high office than Barack Obama, the "community organizer" Presidential candidate.
I realize many Democrats still go on about whether Sarah Palin really was Trig's mother, so deranged did they become in their demonization campaign of an Alaskan governor with high approval ratings in her state. But the fact is, Palin has raised legit issues about the health care legislation, and now she has been vindicated. And in America's democracy - perhaps this is very foreign to you, a European - we're allowed to debate these matters. Well, so long as Nancy Pelosi doesn't have her way.
I know what the Democrats' idea of a wonderful VP candidate was. I was told in 2004 I had to vote for John Edwards for VP or I was a "moron".
In the years since, John Edwards has been exposed as one of the biggest phoney douchebags and liars ever to run for high office. If John Edwards were VP today, we'd be caught up in his web of lies and scandals related to this:
(And that would've come after John Kerry and John Edwards destroyed Iraq's future.)
Yeah, that's the VP we all needed!
So the "grown ups" told us.
I keep hearing how [Americans] want to remain free, yet a lot of them continue to be so easily led by the media and the right. I thought being free meant you were able to think for yourself but obviously not
Your confusion is stemming for your own indoctrination by the media. Here in the USA, the mainstream media is 95% a lock-step propaganda arm of the Obama administration. Rush Limbaugh has started calling them the state media, and he has a point.
Sarah Palin was not my choice for Vice President. I didn't vote for the McCain ticket, though I'd have preferred McCain/Palin over the disaster we have now. I voted for Bob Barr as a protest against two weak major-party tickets.
But Sarah Palin, as a Vice Presidential candidate, had better qualifications for high office than Barack Obama, the "community organizer" Presidential candidate.
I realize many Democrats still go on about whether Sarah Palin really was Trig's mother, so deranged did they become in their demonization campaign of an Alaskan governor with high approval ratings in her state. But the fact is, Palin has raised legit issues about the health care legislation, and now she has been vindicated. And in America's democracy - perhaps this is very foreign to you, a European - we're allowed to debate these matters. Well, so long as Nancy Pelosi doesn't have her way.
I know what the Democrats' idea of a wonderful VP candidate was. I was told in 2004 I had to vote for John Edwards for VP or I was a "moron".
In the years since, John Edwards has been exposed as one of the biggest phoney douchebags and liars ever to run for high office. If John Edwards were VP today, we'd be caught up in his web of lies and scandals related to this:
(And that would've come after John Kerry and John Edwards destroyed Iraq's future.)
Yeah, that's the VP we all needed!
So the "grown ups" told us.
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Theo
Active Member
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
What war did Bush start? Saddam was at war with the USA well before George W. Bush came into power. And if Afghanistan didn't want war with the USA they shouldn't have given safe haven to Usama bin Laden and continued to back him after the 9/11 atrocity. Of course, before the USA attacked Afghanistan, leftists were attacking the USA for not doing anything about the Taliban. We are damned if we do, damned if we don't, to anti-Americans like yourself.
Disregarding people in New Orleans? Shouldn't you be talking about the Democrats who were in charge in that city? And maybe they should've constructed better levies since they had a city trying to defy Mother Nature.
Ruining the economy? I didn't back Bush's economic policies and have little good to say about them (Obama supported Bush's bailouts, not me). But recessions come and go. We're all used to that. However, Obama's extreme socialism has deepened and prolonged it, thus he is tanking in the polls. Some say this is by design, btw. I'm not that big of an Obama hater...yet.
I'm not one to highlight typos, as lord knows I make a million. But your "you're" shit is so repeated that it is no typo. And I'm supposed to overlook your obvious lack of education and think you are the expert on the Democrats' proposals for health care legislation?
I have no party. I'm a registered indie who voted third party last election. You're so radical, though, that you always agree with the mainstream media of America and the Democratic Party.
Well, except you seem to think we had no right to attack al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11. If so, you're not actually one of my fellow Americans, so why should I listen to you?
And if you wanna see a reaming, tune in to the mid-term elections of 2010. Obama will be bleeding from his butt-hole.
nogodsnomasters85;1211900No said:
What war did Bush start? Saddam was at war with the USA well before George W. Bush came into power. And if Afghanistan didn't want war with the USA they shouldn't have given safe haven to Usama bin Laden and continued to back him after the 9/11 atrocity. Of course, before the USA attacked Afghanistan, leftists were attacking the USA for not doing anything about the Taliban. We are damned if we do, damned if we don't, to anti-Americans like yourself.
Disregarding people in New Orleans? Shouldn't you be talking about the Democrats who were in charge in that city? And maybe they should've constructed better levies since they had a city trying to defy Mother Nature.
Ruining the economy? I didn't back Bush's economic policies and have little good to say about them (Obama supported Bush's bailouts, not me). But recessions come and go. We're all used to that. However, Obama's extreme socialism has deepened and prolonged it, thus he is tanking in the polls. Some say this is by design, btw. I'm not that big of an Obama hater...yet.
I'm not one to highlight typos, as lord knows I make a million. But your "you're" shit is so repeated that it is no typo. And I'm supposed to overlook your obvious lack of education and think you are the expert on the Democrats' proposals for health care legislation?
I have no party. I'm a registered indie who voted third party last election. You're so radical, though, that you always agree with the mainstream media of America and the Democratic Party.
Well, except you seem to think we had no right to attack al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11. If so, you're not actually one of my fellow Americans, so why should I listen to you?
And if you wanna see a reaming, tune in to the mid-term elections of 2010. Obama will be bleeding from his butt-hole.
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D
Dave
Guest
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Okay, so it's not euthanasia. It's telling grandma that she gets to die in agony because we can't afford to pay for the old bitch hogging 80% of the funds allocated to healthcare. Now I see.
About Obama's 80% and tough decisions having to be made and all that, it's really NO DIFFERENT than what they do now. They basically euthanize a lot of people by putting them on life support, intubation, a tube pumping oxygen into the lungs, and then giving them morphine so they can "tolerate" the tube. As the morphine works it's magic, shutting down the respiratory system, the body becomes more reliant on the machine and the doses of morphine increase. Then one day they break the news, something that they knew from the start of this method of "treatment", that there is no hope for recovery. Is there a living will or will the family be making that decision?
Then they remove the tube and the patient dies. It might take a while, but it's pretty much a sure thing. The difference between this and euthanasia is a matter of semantics really. They killed the patient with their treatment plan, but they didn't have the ethical purity to actually make death quicker. That is illegal, after all. So they go for the long drawn out method, but the result is the same.
Is it a surprise to Obama that older Americans need more health care? Should American citizens be equally surprised at the way he proposes paying for Grandma's operation out of his own pocket? Who can afford that? He is completely out of touch, and his "beer summit" is a perfect example of this. His whole act is being a great campaigner, and he will continue with his ridiculous PR for his entire term of office while actually offering pretty much the same old thing.
Okay, so it's not euthanasia. It's telling grandma that she gets to die in agony because we can't afford to pay for the old bitch hogging 80% of the funds allocated to healthcare. Now I see.
About Obama's 80% and tough decisions having to be made and all that, it's really NO DIFFERENT than what they do now. They basically euthanize a lot of people by putting them on life support, intubation, a tube pumping oxygen into the lungs, and then giving them morphine so they can "tolerate" the tube. As the morphine works it's magic, shutting down the respiratory system, the body becomes more reliant on the machine and the doses of morphine increase. Then one day they break the news, something that they knew from the start of this method of "treatment", that there is no hope for recovery. Is there a living will or will the family be making that decision?
Then they remove the tube and the patient dies. It might take a while, but it's pretty much a sure thing. The difference between this and euthanasia is a matter of semantics really. They killed the patient with their treatment plan, but they didn't have the ethical purity to actually make death quicker. That is illegal, after all. So they go for the long drawn out method, but the result is the same.
Is it a surprise to Obama that older Americans need more health care? Should American citizens be equally surprised at the way he proposes paying for Grandma's operation out of his own pocket? Who can afford that? He is completely out of touch, and his "beer summit" is a perfect example of this. His whole act is being a great campaigner, and he will continue with his ridiculous PR for his entire term of office while actually offering pretty much the same old thing.
McLovin
New Member
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
nogods and worm are absolutely correct that this is a myth. Here's factcheck. Another debunking. And an article on how this scare tactic evolved.
It's mind numbingly stupid that Palin and others keep carrying on in spite of everything including the fact that organizations like the AARP...the AARP!!! for f***'s sake...endorses this provision that's been unfairly labeled a death panel. And the fact that people keep buying into this bullshit is frightening.
nogods and worm are absolutely correct that this is a myth. Here's factcheck. Another debunking. And an article on how this scare tactic evolved.
It's mind numbingly stupid that Palin and others keep carrying on in spite of everything including the fact that organizations like the AARP...the AARP!!! for f***'s sake...endorses this provision that's been unfairly labeled a death panel. And the fact that people keep buying into this bullshit is frightening.
Anaesthesine
Angel of Distemper
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Wrong.
End of life counseling has one purpose, and one purpose only: to put the final decision in the patient's hands by making them fully aware of all their options. The entire point is to avoid unnecessary suffering. This is not a matter or semantics.
The saddest thing about all the idiots fighting "death panels" is that they are making the same mistake they did when denying people sex education: they are exacerbating the very problem they think they are solving.
As things stand now, many of us are facing "death panels" and an early grave because private insurance companies refuse to treat people with actual, life threatening illnesses. They also refuse to pay for diagnostic tests/procedures that prevent disease.
I will admit that I don't fully understand how the costs of these reforms will be met, but I do understand that the current system is a fiscal and moral disaster; it's completely unsustainable.
It's so easy to attack and pick apart any plan to overhaul health care. Until there is an alternative to the plan that is currently being hammered out in Congress, there is no real discussion, just a lot of political noise that could leave tens of millions of Americans doomed to the status quo of bankruptcy, needless suffering, and premature death.
Wrong.
End of life counseling has one purpose, and one purpose only: to put the final decision in the patient's hands by making them fully aware of all their options. The entire point is to avoid unnecessary suffering. This is not a matter or semantics.
The saddest thing about all the idiots fighting "death panels" is that they are making the same mistake they did when denying people sex education: they are exacerbating the very problem they think they are solving.
As things stand now, many of us are facing "death panels" and an early grave because private insurance companies refuse to treat people with actual, life threatening illnesses. They also refuse to pay for diagnostic tests/procedures that prevent disease.
I will admit that I don't fully understand how the costs of these reforms will be met, but I do understand that the current system is a fiscal and moral disaster; it's completely unsustainable.
It's so easy to attack and pick apart any plan to overhaul health care. Until there is an alternative to the plan that is currently being hammered out in Congress, there is no real discussion, just a lot of political noise that could leave tens of millions of Americans doomed to the status quo of bankruptcy, needless suffering, and premature death.
nugz
SUPAHSTAR!
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
I swear to god, Glenn Beck is the most blatantly hypocritical psycho douchebag I have ever seen on tv. This video would be so funny if people weren't actually taking him seriously. Talk about contradicting yourself.
I swear to god, Glenn Beck is the most blatantly hypocritical psycho douchebag I have ever seen on tv. This video would be so funny if people weren't actually taking him seriously. Talk about contradicting yourself.
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McLovin
New Member
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
^^ On the one hand, I'm not surprised. On the other hand, it is so numbingly frustrating. I can respect a healthy debate on the merits of health care reform, but that's not even close.
And here I am, preaching to the choir.
I'd like to elaborate further on your point.
To begin with, this is voluntary counseling, and it's available every five years. Many on the right-wing have tried to scare people into thinking that it's mandatory. It's not.
The counseling covers numerous important issues such as living wills, advanced care directives (who's going to make your decisions if you can't), hospice options, information about medications for chronic pain sufferers, etc. In other words, the counseling is critical information that everyone needs if they were in that situation. It's helping people and their families plan for one of the most difficult times in their lives. It's a no-brainer that both political parties have easily embraced over the years...until now when people like Sarah Palin egregiously misrepresents the truth, and uses scare tactics to try to get people to think it's some sort of counseling, nay persuasion or even coercion, on how to kill one's self. And people actually buy Palin's (and her ilk's) bullshit. Astonishing.
^^ On the one hand, I'm not surprised. On the other hand, it is so numbingly frustrating. I can respect a healthy debate on the merits of health care reform, but that's not even close.
And here I am, preaching to the choir.
I'd like to elaborate further on your point.
To begin with, this is voluntary counseling, and it's available every five years. Many on the right-wing have tried to scare people into thinking that it's mandatory. It's not.
The counseling covers numerous important issues such as living wills, advanced care directives (who's going to make your decisions if you can't), hospice options, information about medications for chronic pain sufferers, etc. In other words, the counseling is critical information that everyone needs if they were in that situation. It's helping people and their families plan for one of the most difficult times in their lives. It's a no-brainer that both political parties have easily embraced over the years...until now when people like Sarah Palin egregiously misrepresents the truth, and uses scare tactics to try to get people to think it's some sort of counseling, nay persuasion or even coercion, on how to kill one's self. And people actually buy Palin's (and her ilk's) bullshit. Astonishing.
D
Deleted member 4260
Guest
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Excellent blog I found on all this "death panel" bullsh*t propaganda that's going on.
Sarah Palin needs to shut her whore mouth.
First, Sarah's ignorant statement:
"And who will suffer the most when they ration care?" Palin asks. "The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."
Then some words of sense below:
______________________________________________
What is a "Death Panel"? This Man Knows Firsthand
August 11, 2009 09:31 AM EDT
Don’t talk to me about death panels, Sarah Palin.
Despite all of this, you appear blithely unaware that the free market healthcare system we have now does, indeed, have “death panels.” I’ve been part of a death panel conversation. I know about death panels.
You have no idea what it’s like to be called into a sterile conference room with a hospital administrator you’ve never met before and be told that your mother’s insurance policy will only pay for 30 days in ICU. You can't imagine what it's like to be advised that you need to “make some decisions,” like whether your mother should be released “HTD” which is hospital parlance for “home to die,” or if you want to pay out of pocket to keep her in the ICU another week. And when you ask how much that would cost you are given a number so impossibly large that you realize there really are no decisions to make. The decision has been made for you. "Living will" or no, it doesn't matter. The bank account and the insurance policy have trumped any legal document.
If this isn’t a “death panel” I don’t know what is.
So don’t talk to me about “death panels” you heartless, cruel, greedy sons of bitches, who are only too happy to keep the profits rolling in to the big insurance companies while you spout your mealy-mouthed bumper sticker slogans about the evils of socialism. You don't even know what socialism is. You don't know what government healthcare is. …
- Southern Beale
http://sobeale.blogspot.com/
Excellent blog I found on all this "death panel" bullsh*t propaganda that's going on.
Sarah Palin needs to shut her whore mouth.
First, Sarah's ignorant statement:
"And who will suffer the most when they ration care?" Palin asks. "The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."
Then some words of sense below:
______________________________________________
What is a "Death Panel"? This Man Knows Firsthand
August 11, 2009 09:31 AM EDT
Don’t talk to me about death panels, Sarah Palin.
Despite all of this, you appear blithely unaware that the free market healthcare system we have now does, indeed, have “death panels.” I’ve been part of a death panel conversation. I know about death panels.
You have no idea what it’s like to be called into a sterile conference room with a hospital administrator you’ve never met before and be told that your mother’s insurance policy will only pay for 30 days in ICU. You can't imagine what it's like to be advised that you need to “make some decisions,” like whether your mother should be released “HTD” which is hospital parlance for “home to die,” or if you want to pay out of pocket to keep her in the ICU another week. And when you ask how much that would cost you are given a number so impossibly large that you realize there really are no decisions to make. The decision has been made for you. "Living will" or no, it doesn't matter. The bank account and the insurance policy have trumped any legal document.
If this isn’t a “death panel” I don’t know what is.
So don’t talk to me about “death panels” you heartless, cruel, greedy sons of bitches, who are only too happy to keep the profits rolling in to the big insurance companies while you spout your mealy-mouthed bumper sticker slogans about the evils of socialism. You don't even know what socialism is. You don't know what government healthcare is. …
- Southern Beale
http://sobeale.blogspot.com/
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Anaesthesine
Angel of Distemper
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
I say we start a campaign that demonizes anti-reformists as "death-dealers" for refusing to fund access to expanded health coverage and end of life counseling.
Maybe we could show up at town hall meetings clutching American flags, IV poles and signs that say: "Health Care Delayed is Health Care Denied" or something like that.
Or not.
I say we start a campaign that demonizes anti-reformists as "death-dealers" for refusing to fund access to expanded health coverage and end of life counseling.
Maybe we could show up at town hall meetings clutching American flags, IV poles and signs that say: "Health Care Delayed is Health Care Denied" or something like that.
Or not.
D
Deleted member 4260
Guest
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Watch this...
(The Richard Hawking/death panel situation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGudaTzwO8A
I just heard about this.
The media is stupid, but at least it makes for good comedy. MAN, THEY ARE STUPID!!!
Watch this...
(The Richard Hawking/death panel situation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGudaTzwO8A
I just heard about this.
The media is stupid, but at least it makes for good comedy. MAN, THEY ARE STUPID!!!
McLovin
New Member
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
LOL. The irony, eh?
Still the hottest VP candidate since Spiro Agnew. Oh, Spiro Agnew.
LOL. The irony, eh?
Still the hottest VP candidate since Spiro Agnew. Oh, Spiro Agnew.
D
Dave
Guest
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
"End of life counseling" sounds Orwellian, just a little but yes, people need to think about these things and make decisions about things like DNR orders. It is semantics though. They still won't accept that people have the right to assisted suicide but they are willing to advise them to die, and the reason is not to alleviate suffering but to save money, and fit everyone's wishes into a Christian system of thought. I mean, if they wanted to alleviate suffering and someone was going to die for sure they would include assisted suicide with their "counseling". They are lying. The lies are the same lies we are being told now, and the goal, just like now, is not better care, but saving money.
Realize that one fact and you have learned something. This is not about better healthcare at all. It is about saving money.
It will continue to be a disaster from what I can see. Obama's quote about grandma's hip operation says that these costs will NOT be met, and it's not so much that we face early graves as that we can sustain life longer, though it is life without dignity, and it turns out the the price of the technology to sustain this existence is high enough to bankrupt us all.
If the majority of the people have medical care available to them that they can not afford, then what does that mean? Someone else is going to have to pay, or they are going to have to be denied. But Hillary Clinton will be getting to the bottom of the problem of rape in the Congo, so don't worry about that.
It's also easy to jump from the frying pan into the fire. The "plan" being put forward does not seem to be well thought out. Again, I'm just going on what Obama himself said about it. When we get to a difficult question he says, "we'll have to figure that out." If this bill passes I look for him to hold a press conference dressed as a doctor and stand in front of a banner reading Mission Accomplished.
"End of life counseling" sounds Orwellian, just a little but yes, people need to think about these things and make decisions about things like DNR orders. It is semantics though. They still won't accept that people have the right to assisted suicide but they are willing to advise them to die, and the reason is not to alleviate suffering but to save money, and fit everyone's wishes into a Christian system of thought. I mean, if they wanted to alleviate suffering and someone was going to die for sure they would include assisted suicide with their "counseling". They are lying. The lies are the same lies we are being told now, and the goal, just like now, is not better care, but saving money.
Realize that one fact and you have learned something. This is not about better healthcare at all. It is about saving money.
It will continue to be a disaster from what I can see. Obama's quote about grandma's hip operation says that these costs will NOT be met, and it's not so much that we face early graves as that we can sustain life longer, though it is life without dignity, and it turns out the the price of the technology to sustain this existence is high enough to bankrupt us all.
If the majority of the people have medical care available to them that they can not afford, then what does that mean? Someone else is going to have to pay, or they are going to have to be denied. But Hillary Clinton will be getting to the bottom of the problem of rape in the Congo, so don't worry about that.
It's also easy to jump from the frying pan into the fire. The "plan" being put forward does not seem to be well thought out. Again, I'm just going on what Obama himself said about it. When we get to a difficult question he says, "we'll have to figure that out." If this bill passes I look for him to hold a press conference dressed as a doctor and stand in front of a banner reading Mission Accomplished.
Luxo
Luxo by name, Fuxo by nature
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Wow, America really is a frightening place. I find it disgusting that people actually want to deny universal healthcare for everyone. As far as I'm concerned universal healthcare is needed, as we all have a right to life.
To put the NHS across as some sort of mad socialist scheme, is just a complete lack of common sense, despite how intelligent or well respected some members of solo are. The NHS is a fantastic institution, and saves many lives in the UK. It is awful how so many people and politicians in America put it across as a socialist system that doesn't work. Get the f*** over your political and financial moaning and just give people the right to healthcare.
Wow, America really is a frightening place. I find it disgusting that people actually want to deny universal healthcare for everyone. As far as I'm concerned universal healthcare is needed, as we all have a right to life.
To put the NHS across as some sort of mad socialist scheme, is just a complete lack of common sense, despite how intelligent or well respected some members of solo are. The NHS is a fantastic institution, and saves many lives in the UK. It is awful how so many people and politicians in America put it across as a socialist system that doesn't work. Get the f*** over your political and financial moaning and just give people the right to healthcare.
D
Dave
Guest
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
Oh please shut up about America. Everything that happens in the United States is an excuse for people on these boards to share their ignorance by making general statements about this country.
Anyway, what I have heard that formed my ignorant opinion about the healthcare system in England and other countries that have 'universal healthcare' is that what you get for free is substandard and the poor are the only people that use it. Anyone that can afford it pays by choice for better quality treatment, which is about the way it works here. We do have a similar healthcare system here but you have to be really impoverished to get it. Everyone else either has a job with healthcare benefits, or they buy health insurance, and there are still levels of treatment.
There is a difference between a 'right to life' and a right to medical treatment.
Do we all have a right to have our lives prolonged until every option has been exhausted?
Who will pay for it?
About what you wrote at the end, Socialism is unpopular in the US. This is all unavoidably political. It's nice that you think that trying to pay for something is 'financial moaning' but that's the real world.
That is why this idea came up in the first place that Obama is going to need to give 'counseling' to people and tell them that it is time for their life to end, in order to pay for this plan. They have a sneakier way of doing it now where they just get you hooked on drugs and put you on life support. Maybe his plan actually will be helpful by convincing some people that they are a burden. Maybe they could try something like the Palestinians do for their suicide bombers and pay the families of those who choose to check out early. It might even restore the economy. A universal healthcare plan might be more popular if it was also viewed as a stimulus plan.
Oh please shut up about America. Everything that happens in the United States is an excuse for people on these boards to share their ignorance by making general statements about this country.
Anyway, what I have heard that formed my ignorant opinion about the healthcare system in England and other countries that have 'universal healthcare' is that what you get for free is substandard and the poor are the only people that use it. Anyone that can afford it pays by choice for better quality treatment, which is about the way it works here. We do have a similar healthcare system here but you have to be really impoverished to get it. Everyone else either has a job with healthcare benefits, or they buy health insurance, and there are still levels of treatment.
There is a difference between a 'right to life' and a right to medical treatment.
Do we all have a right to have our lives prolonged until every option has been exhausted?
Who will pay for it?
About what you wrote at the end, Socialism is unpopular in the US. This is all unavoidably political. It's nice that you think that trying to pay for something is 'financial moaning' but that's the real world.
That is why this idea came up in the first place that Obama is going to need to give 'counseling' to people and tell them that it is time for their life to end, in order to pay for this plan. They have a sneakier way of doing it now where they just get you hooked on drugs and put you on life support. Maybe his plan actually will be helpful by convincing some people that they are a burden. Maybe they could try something like the Palestinians do for their suicide bombers and pay the families of those who choose to check out early. It might even restore the economy. A universal healthcare plan might be more popular if it was also viewed as a stimulus plan.
Luxo
Luxo by name, Fuxo by nature
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
All of that is fair enough, but again, to put the NHS across as a socialist institution is wrong, plain and simple. People from all across the political spectrum appreciate the NHS and everything it does, and people from the working to upper classes use the NHS and all it's benefits, and I am sure many people view the NHS as a basic human right in this country. Sure, it has it's flaws, but as someone who's received help, advice etc first hand and seen family members handled by the NHS, I can honestly say it has been fantastic.
I'm not saying I know everything about American healthcare, but I just don't like seeing and hearing people rubbishing our fantastic institution. Also, at least you admitted you had a somewhat ignorance towards the NHS.
All of that is fair enough, but again, to put the NHS across as a socialist institution is wrong, plain and simple. People from all across the political spectrum appreciate the NHS and everything it does, and people from the working to upper classes use the NHS and all it's benefits, and I am sure many people view the NHS as a basic human right in this country. Sure, it has it's flaws, but as someone who's received help, advice etc first hand and seen family members handled by the NHS, I can honestly say it has been fantastic.
I'm not saying I know everything about American healthcare, but I just don't like seeing and hearing people rubbishing our fantastic institution. Also, at least you admitted you had a somewhat ignorance towards the NHS.
Anaesthesine
Angel of Distemper
Re: Thank you, Sarah Palin. NO TO DEATH PANELS! Down with Obama!
I absolutely agree with you there - assisted suicide is a basic human right. However, hospice/home care is a humane option that is not as widely known about or accepted as it should be. It is cheaper and (I think) much more comforting than death in a hospital. Just because something is cheaper doesn't make it less humane.
No, many people do face early graves, for lack of preventive diagnostic tests and life-sustaining procedures. You are making the argument that those who have more money should live longer, and the rest of us can die of breast cancer or lymphoma or any number of serious illnesses which often strike at a younger age and respond very well to early detection and treatment.
The reason people cannot afford health care is because costs have artificially skyrocketed. Those who can afford the best should have access to it, but everyone should have access to the basics.
I don't know why Hillary Clinton and the Congo should be dragged into this.
The bill is still in committee, and will not be finalized until September. It is being hammered out as we speak because it is mind-numbingly complex and insanely political. There is no clear-cut path to success, and we will probably get a less-than-stellar bill that has been cobbled together to appease two mutually opposing points of view: those who want meaningful reform, and those who believe that their fellow Americans can just go to hell.
This bill will pass, but I fear it will be so watered-down that meaningful change will be sacrificed to political expediency. Then we can all move on to cap and trade.
I absolutely agree with you there - assisted suicide is a basic human right. However, hospice/home care is a humane option that is not as widely known about or accepted as it should be. It is cheaper and (I think) much more comforting than death in a hospital. Just because something is cheaper doesn't make it less humane.
No, many people do face early graves, for lack of preventive diagnostic tests and life-sustaining procedures. You are making the argument that those who have more money should live longer, and the rest of us can die of breast cancer or lymphoma or any number of serious illnesses which often strike at a younger age and respond very well to early detection and treatment.
The reason people cannot afford health care is because costs have artificially skyrocketed. Those who can afford the best should have access to it, but everyone should have access to the basics.
I don't know why Hillary Clinton and the Congo should be dragged into this.
The bill is still in committee, and will not be finalized until September. It is being hammered out as we speak because it is mind-numbingly complex and insanely political. There is no clear-cut path to success, and we will probably get a less-than-stellar bill that has been cobbled together to appease two mutually opposing points of view: those who want meaningful reform, and those who believe that their fellow Americans can just go to hell.
This bill will pass, but I fear it will be so watered-down that meaningful change will be sacrificed to political expediency. Then we can all move on to cap and trade.
