Do You Consider Morrissey's Backing Group a "Band" ???

[Rowntree]

They were very talented
Seriously, maybe I'm wrong but I've always seen them as a Moz-Marr Hand in glove-thing with the contribution of two other guys who, honestly, could be replaced by anyone

Did you never notice those incredible bass lines that are integral to The Smiths' sound?

I truly despair that anybody could listen to The Smiths, be on a Morrissey fan site and still not get it.

As for the original question. Yes his current bunch of musicians are a band. A pub rock band.

 

[sad veiled bride]

Did you never notice those incredible bass lines that are integral to The Smiths' sound?

I truly despair that anybody could listen to The Smiths, be on a Morrissey fan site and still not get it.

As for the original question. Yes his current bunch of musicians are a band. A pub rock band.

Sure I've noticed them, but I have always thought that Johnny wrote them and Andy executed . No, I'm wrong, I know actually that Andy wrote music too...I'm extremely sorry that you had to "despair" reading my post and my true and sincere apologies to Mr. Rourke...The thing is that I don't know so much about bass guitar, and that's sad because I'm married to a bass guitarist...

 

[Rowntree]

Sure I've noticed them, but I have always thought that Johnny wrote them and Andy executed . No, I'm wrong, I know actually that Andy wrote music too...I'm extremely sorry that you had to "despair" reading my post and my true and sincere apologies to Mr. Rourke...The thing is that I don't know so much about bass guitar, and that's sad because I'm married to a bass guitarist...

You'll have to forgive me, I quoted you but was reading another post at the time

I'm not the most adept at posting on message boards.

If you'd have replaced the others though they'd have had a completely different sound. I often thought the drumming was pretty basic but they probably benefited from that. For me The Smiths were the best band that ever existed and the other two definitley had an input into that.

I can't work up any enthusiasm for his current band. I really do think that you could take any musician out of there and replace them with any competent session musician and it wouldn't make a jot of difference.

 

[sad veiled bride]

You'll have to forgive me, I quoted you but was reading another post at the time

I'm not the most adept at posting on message boards.

If you'd have replaced the others though they'd have had a completely different sound. I often thought the drumming was pretty basic but they probably benefited from that. For me The Smiths were the best band that ever existed and the other two definitley had an input into that.

I can't work up any enthusiasm for his current band. I really do think that you could take any musician out of there and replace them with any competent session musician and it wouldn't make a jot of difference.

NO DEBATE, NO DEBATE...

 

[Amy]

Morrissey's backing band are just a bunch of session musicians - and that goes for Boz and Alain as well, even though they've stuck by him for a hell of a long time. A band is a partnership of equals, there has been nothing even approaching that in Morrissey's career since 1987 - and even then, 'The Smiths' were Morrissey and Marr.

 

[prisoner77]

I reckon if Johnny Marr had decided to work with Morrissey back in the day, the name of the band wouldn't have reverted back..Morrissey and his backing musicians pt.1,2,3.

 

[Rowntree]

I reckon if Johnny Marr had decided to work with Morrissey back in the day, the name of the band wouldn't have reverted back..Morrissey and his backing musicians pt.1,2,3.

If Morrissey's career had been with his current musicians throughout his career and if The Smiths had never existed he'd be the same size as The Beautiful South or something else dreadful. Not dismissing Morrissey's brilliance but the music in the Smiths certainly elevated him into something other worldly instead of what is produced now, bland pub rock with interesting vocal melodies.

It's no fluke that all four Smiths have failed to replicate their greatness since the band's split. As a unit they were amazing and anyone who thinks the musicians had nothing to do with it probably attended the local silly school in a minibus with all the other local window licker kids.

 

[Raphael Lambach]

Well it's an interesting thread I may say.
I guess that when Morrissey's band were formed by Gary, Alain, Boz and Specer they were a band (didn't we call them Morrissey and the lads?). After Gary had left the lads, I think they became only a backing band. But sometime we can think of them as a band. I reckon that someone said something about Years of Refusal posts ago. I think this album is an unit the musician (including Morrissey) behavior like a band.
There's something that I've never seen happen with an artist (solo): put pics of his musicians on his album. It makes them a band too.

 

[Amy]

It's no fluke that all four Smiths have failed to replicate their greatness since the band's split. As a unit they were amazing and anyone who thinks the musicians had nothing to do with it probably attended the local silly school in a minibus with all the other local window licker kids.

What? Andy and Mike didn't even attempt another serious music project after the Smiths, they went straight into session work with the odd bit of DJ-ing and Rourke's radio show. Lucky hangers-on at the very most. The real casualty in terms of post-Smiths success has been Marr, whose career has been nothing if not a catastrophic disappointment for the last twenty years. Even with his latest pub-rock ensemble and lack of a record deal, Morrissey's career has been stellar in comparison.

 

[prisoner77]

If Morrissey's career had been with his current musicians throughout his career and if The Smiths had never existed he'd be the same size as The Beautiful South or something else dreadful. Not dismissing Morrissey's brilliance but the music in the Smiths certainly elevated him into something other worldly instead of what is produced now, bland pub rock with interesting vocal melodies.

It's no fluke that all four Smiths have failed to replicate their greatness since the band's split. As a unit they were amazing and anyone who thinks the musicians had nothing to do with it probably attended the local silly school in a minibus with all the other local window licker kids.

Yes I agree the 4 Smiths where integral to the greatness.. And Craig.

 

[Kewpie]

Re: Do You Consider Morrissey's Backing Group a band?

Hey now! Watch it. That's Pigsty talk.

Ha, Raphael meant Gary Day, not gay.

 

[SparkleBoy]

Of course they are a band by now! They have been playing together for years onstage, in the studio, and writing music. That is why they are called a "backing band."

 

[mcrickson]

Ha, Raphael meant Gary Day, not gay.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reminds us all why we keep you around.

If Morrissey's career had been with his current musicians throughout his career and if The Smiths had never existed he'd be the same size as The Beautiful South or something else dreadful. Not dismissing Morrissey's brilliance but the music in the Smiths certainly elevated him into something other worldly instead of what is produced now, bland pub rock with interesting vocal melodies.

I've been seeing this terminology used in multiple threads recently -- do songs like "It's Not Your Birthday Anymore," "You Were Good In Your Time," "When Last I Spoke to Carol," "I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris," and "Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed" fall under the category of pub rock to you?

It's no fluke that all four Smiths have failed to replicate their greatness since the band's split. As a unit they were amazing and anyone who thinks the musicians had nothing to do with it probably attended the local silly school in a minibus with all the other local window licker kids.

I always think this logic is sort of a backhand to the talented amongst free-agent independent musicians. I've certainly heard bassists and drummers BETTER than Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce. And essentially, we're talking about musicians who would still have to work with the original melodies that Marr came up with -- neither Rourke nor Joyce were catalysts for a Smiths song by any degree. Yes, they added to the Smiths sound, but working with Marr's melodies, I'm sure I could easily find you a bassist and a drummer who could offer just as similar a contribution to the Smiths sound as Rourke and Joyce. Don't underestimate people who aren't in big-name bands or who aren't hugely successful -- after all, look at Marr with the Cribs; just because they had him in their band doesn't mean that they rose to a level anywhere close to that of the Smiths. I am friends with quite a many musicians who could be hugely successful if they wanted the stigma that went along with it -- in fact they turn DOWN offers to join and tour with bands because that lifestyle isn't rewarding to them.

If you'd have replaced the others though they'd have had a completely different sound.

Again, we're talking about people who would have to work with and add to Marr's melodies. That being said, find an adept enough bassist and they'll deliver something similar to or better than what Rourke came up with. Andy Rourke is by no means the best bassist in pop/rock history. And as for the drumming, Joyce's work is pretty touch-and-go. They wouldn't have had a COMPLETELY different sound because Marr was still in charge of writing the melodies, which the other two had to work with -- that means that in pretty much every case there is a set key and rhythm before Rourke and Joyce even get involved, and there is only so much even a talented bassist and drummer can do with those keys and rhythms.

 

[Rowntree]

Thanks for clearing that up. Reminds us all why we keep you around.



I've been seeing this terminology used in multiple threads recently -- do songs like "It's Not Your Birthday Anymore," "You Were Good In Your Time," "When Last I Spoke to Carol," "I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris," and "Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed" fall under the category of pub rock to you?



I always think this logic is sort of a backhand to the talented amongst free-agent independent musicians. I've certainly heard bassists and drummers BETTER than Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce. And essentially, we're talking about musicians who would still have to work with the original melodies that Marr came up with -- neither Rourke nor Joyce were catalysts for a Smiths song by any degree. Yes, they added to the Smiths sound, but working with Marr's melodies, I'm sure I could easily find you a bassist and a drummer who could offer just as similar a contribution to the Smiths sound as Rourke and Joyce. Don't underestimate people who aren't in big-name bands or who aren't hugely successful -- after all, look at Marr with the Cribs; just because they had him in their band doesn't mean that they rose to a level anywhere close to that of the Smiths. I am friends with quite a many musicians who could be hugely successful if they wanted the stigma that went along with it -- in fact they turn DOWN offers to join and tour with bands because that lifestyle isn't rewarding to them.



Again, we're talking about people who would have to work with and add to Marr's melodies. That being said, find an adept enough bassist and they'll deliver something similar to or better than what Rourke came up with. Andy Rourke is by no means the best bassist in pop/rock history. And as for the drumming, Joyce's work is pretty touch-and-go. They wouldn't have had a COMPLETELY different sound because Marr was still in charge of writing the melodies, which the other two had to work with -- that means that in pretty much every case there is a set key and rhythm before Rourke and Joyce even get involved, and there is only so much even a talented bassist and drummer can do with those keys and rhythms.

A lot of bands have one or two talents. What makes a great band is when all of the components mixed together form something even greater than the individual parts.

If great records were purely down to the amount of talent within a band then all supergroups would be good instead of them all being shit.

Yes, other more talented drummers and bassists could have come in but The Smiths would have sounded different if they had. For me almost every record they made is perfect and that includes the rhythm section's contribution. I think both Morrissey and Johnny are happy to acknowledge certainly Andy's contribution to their sound so you don't even need to take my word for it

On your point about Morrissey's current band, yes they're capable of something half decent on occassion but once you take away Morrissey's voice most compositions don't seem to special too me. Morrissey obviously uses interesting melodies and if you like his voice then that alone is enough to drag any tune out of the doldrums.

 

[mcrickson]

A lot of bands have one or two talents. What makes a great band is when all of the components mixed together form something even greater than the individual parts.

If great records were purely down to the amount of talent within a band then all supergroups would be good instead of them all being shit.

Yes, other more talented drummers and bassists could have come in but The Smiths would have sounded different if they had. For me almost every record they made is perfect and that includes the rhythm section's contribution. I think both Morrissey and Johnny are happy to acknowledge certainly Andy's contribution to their sound so you don't even need to take my word for it

You almost completely ignored my point. It was that Marr alone wrote the melodies, which included a predetermined rhythm and key. Rourke and Joyce added to them -- but once there is a rhythm and key already set, there's only so much that a bassist and a drummer CAN do to add to them and still hold to a Smiths' musical aesthetic that Morrissey and Marr would have the final say in. What I'm saying is, the bass and drum patterns for Smiths' songs would be obvious to a talented musician had they just been handed a cassette of Marr's guitar lines only and were told to come up with bass and drum parts. Rourke and Joyce came up with parts that any musician who knew his instrument would come up with knowing in advanced what kind of sound Morrissey and Marr wanted. That being said, if any musician who knew his instrument and was told to play the role in the band that Andy and Mike played (i.e., no overwhelming degree of creative control of the sound of the music), he would churn out a bass or drum pattern the same as Andy and Mike. If it would've turned out "different" than Morrissey and Marr wanted, the musician in question wouldn't be in the band -- primary example, Dale Hibbert.

 

[Rowntree]

You almost completely ignored my point. It was that Marr alone wrote the melodies, which included a predetermined rhythm and key. Rourke and Joyce added to them -- but once there is a rhythm and key already set, there's only so much that a bassist and a drummer CAN do to add to them and still hold to a Smiths' musical aesthetic that Morrissey and Marr would have the final say in. What I'm saying is, the bass and drum patterns for Smiths' songs would be obvious to a talented musician had they just been handed a cassette of Marr's guitar lines only and were told to come up with bass and drum parts. Rourke and Joyce came up with parts that any musician who knew his instrument would come up with knowing in advanced what kind of sound Morrissey and Marr wanted. That being said, if any musician who knew his instrument and was told to play the role in the band that Andy and Mike played (i.e., no overwhelming degree of creative control of the sound of the music), he would churn out a bass or drum pattern the same as Andy and Mike. If it would've turned out "different" than Morrissey and Marr wanted, the musician in question wouldn't be in the band -- primary example, Dale Hibbert.

I haven't missed your point, I don't agree with it. I can only imagine that you've never picked up a musical instrument because I can't imagine you saying any of the above if you had.

Any replacement bass player wouldn't have churned out the same bass line, you've more chance of winning the lottery than that happening. And if Morrissey and Marr had liked an alternative bass player's bass lines they'd still have been different and the band would still have sounded different.

 

[mcrickson]

I haven't missed your point, I don't agree with it. I can only imagine that you've never picked up a musical instrument because I can't imagine you saying any of the above if you had.

Feel free to peruse the latest review of my ensemble's fourth album.

Any replacement bass player wouldn't have churned out the same bass line, you've more chance of winning the lottery than that happening.

If you give a bass player a key, a rhythm, and a predetermined musical aesthetic, there is only so much that bass player can do.

And if Morrissey and Marr had liked an alternative bass player's bass lines they'd still have been different and the band would still have sounded different.

If you give a bass player a key, a rhythm, and a predetermined musical aesthetic, there is only so much that bass player can do.

 

[Rowntree]

Feel free to peruse the latest review of my ensemble's fourth album.



If you give a bass player a key, a rhythm, and a predetermined musical aesthetic, there is only so much that bass player can do.



If you give a bass player a key, a rhythm, and a predetermined musical aesthetic, there is only so much that bass player can do.

Yes but that "only so much a bass player can do" can be completely different to what another bass player will do. Every bass player like every guitarist has a different style and will choose a different array of notes. This is the absolute truth no matter what your argument.

To put a different slant on it, Marc Almond once ended up in a legal process with one of his musicians over this exact same thing. His argument was that he came up with a song and therefore he wrote it. His musical muse argued that his arrangments came to more than that and he was a co writer. I woudn't argue that with Rourke because he obviously wasn't a composer but to dismiss his contribution makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Feel free to peruse the latest review of my ensemble's fourth album.

"Sex Me Into A Straightjacket"?!?!

God, I love you.

 

[mcrickson]

Yes but that "only so much a bass player can do" can be completely different to what another bass player will do. Every bass player like every guitarist has a different style and will choose a different array of notes. This is the absolute truth no matter what your argument.

When you're given a key, a tempo, and a gamut of music that is primarily pop/rock (i.e., no experimental or classical-based atonal scales or patterns, no full-fledged bass solos), the style will not by any means be as radically different as you seem to think.

"Sex Me Into A Straightjacket"?!?!

God, I love you.

You ought to. Feel free to download it, there's a sample from "Lady & the Tramp" in it. I shit you not.