Jesse has improved as a guitarist. Agreed?

[Velvis]

Fan overheard in 1986: "Oh my God, wasn't Johnny Marr amazing? His guitar playing in 'I Know It's Over' was just...beautiful!"

Fan overheard in 2012: "Oh my God, wasn't Jesse amazing? He made it through the entire set without a goof".

The bar seems to have been lowered...

I don't think the odd bum note means anything.

I'm a musician and from my experience the players who never make a mistake tend to be 'clinical' and play with less 'feel' than players who have a more 'free' approach, this is especially true of guitarists I find.

 

[nothappynotsad]

FAIL


FAIL


FAIL


How could anyone possibly confuse this man for a decent guitarist?

 

[Worm]

I don't think the odd bum note means anything.

I'm a musician and from my experience the players who never make a mistake tend to be 'clinical' and play with less 'feel' than players who have a more 'free' approach, this is especially true of guitarists I find.

Oh, I agree: some of my favorite guitarists are, in a strict sense, awful. This is why I'm often told, "I'm sorry, you just said Bernard Sumner was one of your favorite guitarists. Do you want to sit down? Can I get you a glass of water?"

Of course, guitarists who are technically flawed but somehow manage to make great noises tend to be in bands in which they enjoy total freedom to be as messy as they want. Jesse doesn't have that freedom. This must always be kept in mind when evaluating his talent and playing ability. Personally I don't like him as a guitar player, but I don't feel I know him as a guitar player. As with all of Morrissey's musicians, you not only have to ask, "What can they do?", but also, more importantly, "What will he allow them to do?"

 

[Velvis]

Oh, I agree: some of my favorite guitarists are, in a strict sense, awful. This is why I'm often told, "I'm sorry, you just said Bernard Sumner was one of your favorite guitarists. Do you want to sit down? Can I get you a glass of water?"

Of course, guitarists who are technically flawed but somehow manage to make great noises tend to be in bands in which they enjoy total freedom to be as messy as they want. Jesse doesn't have that freedom. This must always be kept in mind when evaluating his talent and playing ability. Personally I don't like him as a guitar player, but I don't feel I know him as a guitar player. As with all of Morrissey's musicians, you not only have to ask, "What can they do?", but also, more importantly, "What will he allow them to do?"

You are absolutely correct.

I also agree that Jesse does not have the luxury of total freedom, but what people don't realise is that there's more to being in a band than just playing music, a lot more. I get tired of the lazy criticism and constant Jesse bashing that goes on here, he's obviously the right man for Morrissey, he fits! So maybe Alain wasn't as 'good' as Johnny, maybe Jesse isn't as 'good' as Alain, oh how we wish it was still the 80's. I say STFU and enjoy this great band while you can!

 

[nothappynotsad]

You are absolutely correct.

I also agree that Jesse does not have the luxury of total freedom, but what people don't realise is that there's more to being in a band than just playing music, a lot more. I get tired of the lazy criticism and constant Jesse bashing that goes on here, he's obviously the right man for Morrissey, he fits! So maybe Alain wasn't as 'good' as Johnny, maybe Jesse isn't as 'good' as Alain, oh how we wish it was still the 80's. I say STFU and enjoy this great band while you can!

Only, it's hard to enjoy a band when the guitar player is butchering the songs. When you're paying $100 a ticket, the least they can do is have someone who cares more about hitting the right notes than he does thrashing around the stage in an attempt to look aggressive.

 

[Worm]

You are absolutely correct.

I also agree that Jesse does not have the luxury of total freedom, but what people don't realise is that there's more to being in a band than just playing music, a lot more. I get tired of the lazy criticism and constant Jesse bashing that goes on here, he's obviously the right man for Morrissey, he fits! So maybe Alain wasn't as 'good' as Johnny, maybe Jesse isn't as 'good' as Alain, oh how we wish it was still the 80's. I say STFU and enjoy this great band while you can!

As I read your post, I was nodding my head, then I was pumping my fist, then I was ready to start in with an air guitar solo. But you closed by saying we should appreciate this "great band" and I got a little chill down my back. And not a good one.

In my view it's not accurate to say Morrissey has a great band. I think he's a great singer, and we should appreciate this great singer while we can. I think the quality of his band is actually kind of an irrelevant question. He doesn't want a great band, and I don't think they're trying to be one. It's not really a "band" situation, although it does appear to be. Music afficianados aside, can anyone name Elvis Presley's backing musicians? How about Billy Fury's? Sandie Shaw's? It's all about the Voice, and that's the way Morrissey wants it. You're right to say they fit, and fit is the most important thing. They fit as adequate backing players for a living legend.

 

[nothappynotsad]

In my view it's not accurate to say Morrissey has a great band. I think he's a great singer, and we should appreciate this great singer while we can. I think the quality of his band is actually kind of an irrelevant question. He doesn't want a great band, and I don't think they're trying to be one. It's not really a "band" situation, although it does appear to be. Music afficianados aside, can anyone name Elvis Presley's backing musicians? How about Billy Fury's? Sandie Shaw's? It's all about the Voice, and that's the way Morrissey wants it. You're right to say they fit, and fit is the most important thing. They fit as adequate backing players for a living legend.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Jesse got down on his knee and took my smelly dog's face in his hands and gave him kisses on the nose and talked to him sweet while all the fan girls were asking Morrissey to sign their arms with marker. He could play the whole set out of tune and I wouldn't give a shit. I like him. And he's a good guitarist.

 

[nothappynotsad]

Jesse got down on his knee and took my smelly dog's face in his hands and gave him kisses on the nose and talked to him sweet while all the fan girls were asking Morrissey to sign their arms with marker. He could play the whole set out of tune and I wouldn't give a shit. I like him. And he's a good guitarist.

If you were paying money to actually listen to the music during a Morrissey show, you would care.

 

[Worm]

And he's a good guitarist.

Do you really think so? I guess my answer, as I said above, is "I don't know".

A week ago I downloaded an R.E.M. gig from 1984 or 1985. I'm not a huge R.E.M. fan at all, although once upon a time I liked them quite a bit. Anyway, I was floored by how distinctive the band sounded back in those days. Such a unique sound, as distinctive as a fingerprint. I'm not talking about Michael Stipe at all, because he was more of a mumbler then, no, I'm talking about the other three making music that sounded full of personality, a special kind of voice in its own right. Listening to Peter Buck's guitar was like hearing the voice of a dear old friend you haven't seen in decades (partly because R.E.M.'s sound evolved away from the jingly-jangly stuff, partly because I stopped listening to them as much).

I don't know that I get that feeling from Morrissey's band(s). Do you think if you heard a soundcheck recording of his current lineup, sans Morrissey's vocals, you'd know who they were?

Which reminds me: I hear tell Peter Buck's calendar opened up recently...

 

[Velvis]

As I read your post, I was nodding my head, then I was pumping my fist, then I was ready to start in with an air guitar solo. But you closed by saying we should appreciate this "great band" and I got a little chill down my back. And not a good one.

In my view it's not accurate to say Morrissey has a great band. I think he's a great singer, and we should appreciate this great singer while we can. I think the quality of his band is actually kind of an irrelevant question. He doesn't want a great band, and I don't think they're trying to be one. It's not really a "band" situation, although it does appear to be. Music afficianados aside, can anyone name Elvis Presley's backing musicians? How about Billy Fury's? Sandie Shaw's? It's all about the Voice, and that's the way Morrissey wants it. You're right to say they fit, and fit is the most important thing. They fit as adequate backing players for a living legend.

Do I know Elvis's backing band? Yes!
Billy Fury's? Sandy Shaw's... er no.

You're right about 'The Voice' of course. However I don't like the way people post clips of Jesse's bum notes as evidence that he's not right for the job. How easy would it be to trawl through live clips and make snotty comments every time Morrissey's vocal hit a dodgy note? It would probably be easy but I would never do it, I wouldn't want to, it would be nasty and mean spirited.

 

[Worm]

Do I know Elvis's backing band? Yes!
Billy Fury's? Sandy Shaw's... er no.

You're right about 'The Voice' of course. However I don't like the way people post clips of Jesse's bum notes as evidence that he's not right for the job. How easy would it be to trawl through live clips and make snotty comments every time Morrissey's vocal hit a dodgy note? It would probably be easy but I would never do it, I wouldn't want to, it would be nasty and mean spirited.

Right, but you're fair-minded because you're a musician and you appreciate what they're doing better than most.

Jessie is a great fit for Morrissey-- based on what I assume are Morrissey's desires for a backing band. That I'll go with.

 

[Amy]

I think the quality of his band is actually kind of an irrelevant question. He doesn't want a great band, and I don't think they're trying to be one. It's not really a "band" situation, although it does appear to be. Music afficianados aside, can anyone name Elvis Presley's backing musicians? How about Billy Fury's? Sandie Shaw's? It's all about the Voice, and that's the way Morrissey wants it. You're right to say they fit, and fit is the most important thing. They fit as adequate backing players for a living legend.

How can the quality of the band ever be irrelevant? You're saying that Moz deliberately employs clunky, clumsy writers/musicians like Tobias so that they don't detract from his "star" presence... and you're cool with that because they're just backing musicians and no-one really pays attention to them anyway? If that's true then it displays crippling insecurity on Morrissey's part, and a completely lazy and apathetic attitude to his own career. He might be "The Voice" but he can't play an instrument, and if his backing musicians are piss-poor then what are we left with as a live audience? A singer grown accustomed to their mediocrity, having to shout 'Mabel/table' crap over the same 3 chords? Ugh.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

If you were paying money to actually listen to the music during a Morrissey show, you would care.

Oh but I do pay money to listen to the music, perhaps closer than most. I know his current band pushes every button in my brain of awesome. To each their own I suppose.

Right, but you're fair-minded because you're a musician and you appreciate what they're doing better than most.

Jessie is a great fit for Morrissey-- based on what I assume are Morrissey's desires for a backing band. That I'll go with.

This.

 

[Worm]

How can the quality of the band ever be irrelevant? You're saying that Moz deliberately employs clunky, clumsy writers/musicians like Tobias so that they don't detract from his "star" presence... and you're cool with that because they're just backing musicians and no-one really pays attention to them anyway? If that's true then it displays crippling insecurity on Morrissey's part, and a completely lazy and apathetic attitude to his own career. He might be "The Voice" but he can't play an instrument, and if his backing musicians are piss-poor then what are we left with as a live audience? A singer grown accustomed to their mediocrity, having to shout 'Mabel/table' crap over the same 3 chords? Ugh.

A withering opposing viewpoint as always, Amy.

For me it comes down to what I think Morrissey is trying to accomplish, not what I listen for in music. And I just don't think he's attempting to make music with a true band dynamic. I'm fully aware that he likes Boz, Jesse, and the guys; I know he says "We are Morrissey", implying he does think of them as a band; and I haven't forgotten how he talked enthusiastically about how some of his recent stuff was recorded more as a true band. Nevertheless, I think that he's going for a different dynamic: singer with backing band, not a band. I base this as much on his favorite records, and what he talks about liking in other music, as I do on what he's doing with his own players. For him the voice is everything. The voice is paramount in pop music, the music secondary. It's just his way of listening to, and making, pop records. That The Smiths were a strong band in their own right was an accident.

 

[Amy]

A withering opposing viewpoint as always, Amy.

For me it comes down to what I think Morrissey is trying to accomplish, not what I listen for in music. And I just don't think he's attempting to make music with a true band dynamic. I'm fully aware that he likes Boz, Jesse, and the guys; I know he says "We are Morrissey", implying he does think of them as a band; and I haven't forgotten how he talked enthusiastically about how some of his recent stuff was recorded more as a true band. Nevertheless, I think that he's going for a different dynamic: singer with backing band, not a band. I base this as much on his favorite records, and what he talks about liking in other music, as I do on what he's doing with his own players. For him the voice is everything. The voice is paramount in pop music, the music secondary. It's just his way of listening to, and making, pop records

I agree with you (almost) completely in terms of the band dynamic, except that I think there's a difference between employing ordinary backing players who have glimmers of writing genius - Boz, Alain etc - and employing people who can barely play at all (didn't Moz himself say that Jesse was "still learning"?) just because he gets on with them in a personal capacity and they don't present a challenge to the spotlight. To me, that view says Moz has stopped caring about the music - or worse, that he never really cared at all, and saw everything from 1982 to the present as one seamless backdrop to the ultimate Morrissey Show. I don't think it was like that.

That The Smiths were a strong band in their own right was an accident.

If you're right, then.. thank God for Johnny Marr. Morrissey owes him everything.

 

[Maurice E]

In my view it's not accurate to say Morrissey has a great band. I think he's a great singer, and we should appreciate this great singer while we can. I think the quality of his band is actually kind of an irrelevant question. He doesn't want a great band, and I don't think they're trying to be one. It's not really a "band" situation, although it does appear to be. Music afficianados aside, can anyone name Elvis Presley's backing musicians? How about Billy Fury's? Sandie Shaw's? It's all about the Voice, and that's the way Morrissey wants it. You're right to say they fit, and fit is the most important thing. They fit as adequate backing players for a living legend.

I think you make one huge mistake, Worm, and that is your apparent belief that Morrissey is a musical genius who has deliberately (and cunningly!) chosen a not-very-good band. Morrissey is not really a musical genius at all (although he is often a singing and lyrical genius). He, himself, has said that he is not even a musician (a little harsh I think). Morrissey genuinely believes that his band are musically amazing. He keeps telling himself this, and he keeps telling us it too! He clearly does want a great band, and he believes that he has found one. Personally, they seem fine to me as a live band - they seem good enough (and I think most people at the live shows would agree, except perhaps those who know a fair amount about guitar playing). My main complaint is the quality of the songwriting rather than the live performances. And just because no-one can name Presley's musicians, it doesn't mean they were no good...

 

[Worm]

and employing people who can barely play at all (didn't Moz himself say that Jesse was "still learning"?)

I'm not 100% sure I have all the details of his resume, but Jesse is not a learner at all, he's actually an accomplished rock guitarist-- arguably the most accomplished guitarist Morrissey has worked with in his solo career.

If you're right, then.. thank God for Johnny Marr. Morrissey owes him everything.

Goes both ways. Marr would have been a successful musician no matter what, the question is how successful. He'd have been a middling figure in Manchester, probably a producer or a DJ; perhaps a member of The Farm or something.

The key word, I think, is luck. Marr did the knocking, but they both got lucky.

Chance played a big role in the formation of The Smiths. That's why I say it's important to remember they were an accident. People look back and assume Morrissey got it right the first time around and has spent 25 years wandering the desert trying to return to the Eden years of 1983-1987. I think it's the opposite. The Smiths were the imperfect, rough-draft period of his career, and since 1987 he's actually had the power and the freedom to make the career he always wanted.

There was a point in time when he knew he wanted to sing, before Johnny knocked on his door. My guess is that if we could go back in a hot tub time machine to that point in time, seek him out at a Buzzcocks gig, and ask him what his ideal situation would be, 20 year old Morrissey would spell out-- not in names, but in terms of personnel and structure-- the situation of his current band, not The Smiths; his ideal template would be Nico, not The Beatles. People always underestimate his arty side, I think (why is Linder his soulmate, for crying out loud?). He doesn't like rock and roll per se. He loves pop music-- and, occasionally, he has loved rock-heavy pop bands who have used rock as one way to convey the emotions of a singer. Always, always the singer came first.

 

[Worm]

I think you make one huge mistake, Worm

Only one? You're spoiling my self-image.

And just because no-one can name Presley's musicians, it doesn't mean they were no good...

I wasn't clear. I think Elvis's musicians were excellent. My point is that nobody listened to Elvis records for the band.

Does Morrissey think he has assembled the finest band in the world? Or the finest band for him? There's a difference. He wants something very specific from them. They give it to him. He loves them for it. That isn't the same thing as Morrissey believing he's got the cream of the crop.

I think he listens to rock music differently than we do. What he wants out of a band isn't what we, as fans, might want out of a band.

 

[nothappynotsad]

I'm not 100% sure I have all the details of his resume, but Jesse is not a learner at all, he's actually an accomplished rock guitarist-- arguably the most accomplished guitarist Morrissey has worked with in his solo career.

So, being thrown out of multiple bands and being in multiple failed bands constitutes the title "accomplished" these days?