Virtues of Celibacy

[nogodsnomasters85]

There have been plenty of naughty threads Which politician/popstar/whatever would you sleep with, etc.,and everything else under the sun from "vegan-warrior" types proposing death for all who consume meat products, to what kind of cologne Morrissey wears. It seems to me this is a subject which hasn't received it's due. I KNOW there is at least one other celibate Moz fan on this site, I suspect (HOPE!) there are more. As Wilde said, it is really the only true perversion in the eyes of most people. I'm hoping to provoke discussion. The trials and tribulations of being celibate, how did you come to this conversion, was it difficult?, philosophical implications, and inspiring testimonials.

 

[pandora_cocteau]

I think circumstance drives a lot of people down that path...but also, failing to see what is so great about two peoples' body parts rubbing together. personally, i always pretended very well to be interested in sex, in order to please those around me. some people think i am very sexually open because of how explicit i am- i don't blush when someone talks about anything to do with sex, and i seem to be very well informed on the subject matter as well. however, i don't really partake in sex because i just don't see the point in it. there is something far too animalistic about it, and i don't think i am old enough to see the "beauty" that everybody speaks of when it comes to "doing it". maybe eventually? i don't know..

i think i also chose to not have sex because i like to be in charge of my reproductive system. i assume it is easier for men, whose entire lives go unharmed if one of the fellas decides to go through the pinhole, but as a woman, i wouldn't want a pleasure seeking habit to end up being the most miserable mistake of my life. i am pro choice, but abortion would not be an option for me...therefore i choose to not sleep with anyone until i am sure that i would be able to handle a mistake. right now, it's 100% no...and i know, 21st century, contraception has evolved...still..i am very paranoid and well....-...a lot of those people who say "oh come on,if you protect yourself bla bla bla" have had mistake children themselves so...i don't know how reliable their advice is.

Virtues of celibacy though....I think it is all very relative and depends on what suits what type of person. Also the reasoning behind celibacy is important- if it is a past event, a trauma, that one is trying to repress by not having sex, I think they should seek a psychoanalysts help, or try to find a solution to the problem. I don't think it would make someone a better person if they don't have sex, but at the same time, i personally find the whole "declination of shallow pleasures" extremely attractive..not sexually of course....ha-ha.

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

Thank god somebody picked up, I was beginning to think I was alone in the universe. Yes, the animalistic part, that really stands out to me as well. It really crystallized for me when I got way into Nietzsche. If you're not familiar with his theory of the Will to Power and Der Ubermensch, I'll summarize. Nietzsche said, and I truly belive this, that the Will to Power was the motivation behind all actions, vicious or altruistic. How self-indulgent behavior is about self empowerment needs little explanation. Nietzsche argued that so-called "altruistic" behavior, while nicer and more socially constructive, is equally self-satisfying because the human-rights activist, doctor in a thir world country, whomever, is doing what they do because THEY can't bear to be a silent observer of others' suffering. If you purchase something, if you get a girlfriend, a new job, it all boils down to adding to the self, becoming more than the original whole, the Will to Power, one could even connect it to physics and the magnetic properties of matter. Nietzsche (Who only had sex once in his life it is believed.) called the apex or objective of this process as "Der Ubermench", the Overman. Or "superman" but this is a poor translation. This is the individual who has surpassed not only mundane everyday obstacles, but has transcended humanity, become MORE than any mortal man. It's a given tht we should all try to be the best we can be. How can one transcend humanity if one cannot control, simple, primitive instincts? Reason is TRIUMPH over instinct. ...At least thats' how I see it. Sorry if I went a little overboard. I really dig Nietzsche.

 

[SNS22]

Thank god somebody picked up, I was beginning to think I was alone in the universe. Yes, the animalistic part, that really stands out to me as well. It really crystallized for me when I got way into Nietzsche. If you're not familiar with his theory of the Will to Power and Der Ubermensch, I'll summarize. Nietzsche said, and I truly belive this, that the Will to Power was the motivation behind all actions, vicious or altruistic. How self-indulgent behavior is about self empowerment needs little explanation. Nietzsche argued that so-called "altruistic" behavior, while nicer and more socially constructive, is equally self-satisfying because the human-rights activist, doctor in a thir world country, whomever, is doing what they do because THEY can't bear to be a silent observer of others' suffering. If you purchase something, if you get a girlfriend, a new job, it all boils down to adding to the self, becoming more than the original whole, the Will to Power, one could even connect it to physics and the magnetic properties of matter. Nietzsche (Who only had sex once in his life it is believed.) called the apex or objective of this process as "Der Ubermench", the Overman. Or "superman" but this is a poor translation. This is the individual who has surpassed not only mundane everyday obstacles, but has transcended humanity, become MORE than any mortal man. It's a given tht we should all try to be the best we can be. How can one transcend humanity if one cannot control, simple, primitive instincts? Reason is TRIUMPH over instinct. ...At least thats' how I see it. Sorry if I went a little overboard. I really dig Nietzsche.

Nietzsche was a selfish bastard who cared for no man..and he's probably toasting at a nice medium rare right now

 

[pandora_cocteau]

Thank god somebody picked up, I was beginning to think I was alone in the universe. Yes, the animalistic part, that really stands out to me as well. It really crystallized for me when I got way into Nietzsche. If you're not familiar with his theory of the Will to Power and Der Ubermensch, I'll summarize. Nietzsche said, and I truly belive this, that the Will to Power was the motivation behind all actions, vicious or altruistic. How self-indulgent behavior is about self empowerment needs little explanation. Nietzsche argued that so-called "altruistic" behavior, while nicer and more socially constructive, is equally self-satisfying because the human-rights activist, doctor in a thir world country, whomever, is doing what they do because THEY can't bear to be a silent observer of others' suffering. If you purchase something, if you get a girlfriend, a new job, it all boils down to adding to the self, becoming more than the original whole, the Will to Power, one could even connect it to physics and the magnetic properties of matter. Nietzsche (Who only had sex once in his life it is believed.) called the apex or objective of this process as "Der Ubermench", the Overman. Or "superman" but this is a poor translation. This is the individual who has surpassed not only mundane everyday obstacles, but has transcended humanity, become MORE than any mortal man. It's a given tht we should all try to be the best we can be. How can one transcend humanity if one cannot control, simple, primitive instincts? Reason is TRIUMPH over instinct. ...At least thats' how I see it. Sorry if I went a little overboard. I really dig Nietzsche.

AAahhh!!! I adore him too!! I remember sitting on the bus completely immersed in Thus spoke zarathustra...I missed my bus stop but somehow it didn't matter. Do you like Sartre? you must!!!

 

[SNS22]

AAahhh!!! I adore him too!! I remember sitting on the bus completely immersed in Thus spoke zarathustra...I missed my bus stop but somehow it didn't matter. Do you like Sartre? you must!!!

Sarte is an Athetistic moron

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

Quite to the contrary, he kept long, passionate correspondences with friends, he spent most of his life convalescing, so most of his socializing was done through letters. And, she may not have been a man, but he was UNDENIABLY close to and fond of, Lou Salome. Why Nietzsche should be in hell as per you're implication, I can only guess.

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

AAahhh!!! I adore him too!! I remember sitting on the bus completely immersed in Thus spoke zarathustra...I missed my bus stop but somehow it didn't matter. Do you like Sartre? you must!!!

Actually, I don't like Sartre so much, alright, but not my preference. Also, I disagree with many of his thesis, but I also disagree with many of Nietzsche's. It's not just WHAT he writes, but the style. And I also loved Zarathustra, one of his best. Though whether or not it lived up to it's ambitions is arguable.

 

[SNS22]

Quite to the contrary, he kept long, passionate correspondences with friends, he spent most of his life convalescing, so most of his socializing was done through letters. And, she may not have been a man, but he was UNDENIABLY close to and fond of, Lou Salome. Why Nietzsche should be in hell as per you're implication, I can only guess.

He advocated the very opposite of doing things for other people...he advocating do things for yourself...and screw other people...and he was German

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

He advocated the very opposite of doing things for other people...he advocating do things for yourself...and screw other people...and he was German

You seem to have missed part of my earlier statement. Nietzsche argued that ALL actions are self motivated, even charity, or what we view as self-sacrificing behavior. According to this thesis, and it makes a lot of sense, Mother Teresa is equally self-serving as Ted Bundy. Estimations of right and wrong (I know who I'd rather be stuck with.) are a seperate issue, merely that both are motivated by a drive to act to acheive satisfaction of that drive. Now he DID advocate a stirner-esque individualism however if this is analyzed he isn't promoting taking advantage of others, merely that it is every man's duty to discover and acheive his own unique destiny, I part with nietzsche on this, society has it's benefits, and as for being german, well I won't even bother.

 

[SNS22]

You seem to have missed part of my earlier statement. Nietzsche argued that ALL actions are self motivated, even charity, or what we view as self-sacrificing behavior. According to this thesis, and it makes a lot of sense, Mother Teresa is equally self-serving as Ted Bundy. Estimations of right and wrong (I know who I'd rather be stuck with.) are a seperate issue, merely that both are motivated by a drive to act to acheive satisfaction of that drive. Now he DID advocate a stirner-esque individualism however if this is analyzed he isn't promoting taking advantage of others, merely that it is every man's duty to discover and acheive his own unique destiny, I part with nietzsche on this, society has it's benefits, and as for being german, well I won't even bother.

I was kidding about him being German...

I've just never agreed with his philosophy/politics

 

[down_in_albion]

Thank god somebody picked up, I was beginning to think I was alone in the universe. Yes, the animalistic part, that really stands out to me as well. It really crystallized for me when I got way into Nietzsche. If you're not familiar with his theory of the Will to Power and Der Ubermensch, I'll summarize. Nietzsche said, and I truly belive this, that the Will to Power was the motivation behind all actions, vicious or altruistic. How self-indulgent behavior is about self empowerment needs little explanation. Nietzsche argued that so-called "altruistic" behavior, while nicer and more socially constructive, is equally self-satisfying because the human-rights activist, doctor in a thir world country, whomever, is doing what they do because THEY can't bear to be a silent observer of others' suffering. If you purchase something, if you get a girlfriend, a new job, it all boils down to adding to the self, becoming more than the original whole, the Will to Power, one could even connect it to physics and the magnetic properties of matter. Nietzsche (Who only had sex once in his life it is believed.) called the apex or objective of this process as "Der Ubermench", the Overman. Or "superman" but this is a poor translation. This is the individual who has surpassed not only mundane everyday obstacles, but has transcended humanity, become MORE than any mortal man. It's a given tht we should all try to be the best we can be. How can one transcend humanity if one cannot control, simple, primitive instincts? Reason is TRIUMPH over instinct. ...At least thats' how I see it. Sorry if I went a little overboard. I really dig Nietzsche.

I'm sorry but Nietzsche was equally trapped in Judeo-christian morality as any preacher. There is no transcendence, there is nothing greater, the very idea of avoiding the sexual instinct is ridiculous. He was absolutely right that there is no such thing as disinterested altruism but he was just reinterpreting Darwinism, nothing more.

An actual scientific understanding of the basis of altruism can be found in any number of Evolutionary Biology texts, though The Selfish Gene will be a decent start.

 

[Sir Alec]

Since I was young I've been overly interested in sex. When I grew up (physically, far from mentally) It got me into plenty of trouble. It hurt my relationships, my self esteem, and my health. I never could have been celibate, but I sure as hell could have been a little bit more reserved. later in my life, after many sad incidents I met a woman who was similar to me and we both matured together. It was what I was looking for all along, not celibacy or sex or anything else.

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

I'm sorry but Nietzsche was equally trapped in Judeo-christian morality as any preacher. There is no transcendence, there is nothing greater, the very idea of avoiding the sexual instinct is ridiculous. He was absolutely right that there is no such thing as disinterested altruism but he was just reinterpreting Darwinism, nothing more.

An actual scientific understanding of the basis of altruism can be found in any number of Evolutionary Biology texts, though The Selfish Gene will be a decent start.

As for nothing greater, I do not expect to magically transform into pure energy, but I think it's accepted that we want to progress and become greater than ourselves. That humanity has always been pushing the limits of it's potential. I see mastery of biological imuplses as an extension of this. Moreover, a brief excursion.. Most of us use the distinction between man and animal. What is the nature of this distinction? The chief distinction, for we eat, shit, bleed, etc., in every way like any other mammal, EXCEPT we have reason, and thought, the ability to conceptualize abstracts. This is why we have technology, democracy, philosophers (Like Nietzsche), if this is so, would not further mastering instinct be an affirmation of our humanity? Or, at the very least, is it not admirable/desireable to develop ones' willpower, mastery over oneself? As for that book, I haven't read it, but you seem to be echoing a pet theory of mine. I believe that our morality far from what Nietzsche sees it as an extension of juseo-christian values, which is true in some respects, but as the product of innate behavior patterns and logical reasoning. (One case in which both are in sync.) For example, how few species kill they're own kind, how the moral codes espoused by every religion tend to emphasize the same basic codes of conduct. Just a pet theory.

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

Since I was young I've been overly interested in sex. When I grew up (physically, far from mentally) It got me into plenty of trouble. It hurt my relationships, my self esteem, and my health. I never could have been celibate, but I sure as hell could have been a little bit more reserved. later in my life, after many sad incidents I met a woman who was similar to me and we both matured together. It was what I was looking for all along, not celibacy or sex or anything else.

Having sex. Not having sex. I'm unaware of a third option but curious??? And you COULD have been celibate, you just didn't WANT to. If a buddhist monk can sit perfectly still while immolating himself, any amount of self-control is possible, the key is WILLPOWER, or as someone close to me said it "desire", however I think "willpower" encapsulates it better, though.

 

[SNS22]

Having sex. Not having sex. I'm unaware of a third option but curious??? And you COULD have been celibate, you just didn't WANT to. If a buddhist monk can sit perfectly still while immolating himself, any amount of self-control is possible, the key is WILLPOWER, or as someone close to me said it "desire", however I think "willpower" encapsulates it better, though.

again..WHY would he want to do that?

 

[down_in_albion]

As for nothing greater, I do not expect to magically transform into pure energy, but I think it's accepted that we want to progress and become greater than ourselves. That humanity has always been pushing the limits of it's potential. I see mastery of biological imuplses as an extension of this. Moreover, a brief excursion.. Most of us use the distinction between man and animal. What is the nature of this distinction? The chief distinction, for we eat, shit, bleed, etc., in every way like any other mammal, EXCEPT we have reason, and thought, the ability to conceptualize abstracts. This is why we have technology, democracy, philosophers (Like Nietzsche), if this is so, would not further mastering instinct be an affirmation of our humanity? Or, at the very least, is it not admirable/desireable to develop ones' willpower, mastery over oneself? As for that nook, I haven't read it, but you seem to be echoing a pet theory of mine. I believe that our morality far from what Nietzsche sees it as an extension of juseo-christian values, which is true in some respects, but as the product of innate behavior patterns and logical reasoning. (One case in which both are in sync.) For example, how few species kill they're own kind, how the moral codes espoused by every religion tend to emphasize the same basic codes of conduct. Just a pet theory.

I don't object to the idea of 'betterment' per se, I was objecting to the language. Any strengthening of the power of reason over primal savagery, I would more than welcome.

It actually goes much beyond ones 'own kind' eg species, which ceased to actually be a viable thesis 40 years ago, it would be more productive to see it in terms of genetic sustainability. For much of mans history we were essentially small groups of hunter-gatherers, who would rarely come into contact with those outside our own genetic circle. This being the case it was evolutionary profitable to develop an altruistic instinct, because everyone you will meet will share your genes. The most obvious example being the parental instinct.

 

[Sir Alec]

Having sex. Not having sex. I'm unaware of a third option but curious??? And you COULD have been celibate, you just didn't WANT to. If a buddhist monk can sit perfectly still while immolating himself, any amount of self-control is possible, the key is WILLPOWER, or as someone close to me said it "desire", however I think "willpower" encapsulates it better, though.

Sexual desire is natural, and to say that we should all withhold that desire is pure nonsense. Your right, I could have been celibate, but not for life. Once I met my wife I found someone I truly loved to be with and sex was very important to us, because it wasn't just bumping, grinding, and animal thrusting to us.

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

I don't object to the idea of 'betterment' per se, I was objecting to the language. Any strengthening of the power of reason over primal savagery, I would more than welcome.

Then does restraining this impulse not fall under this category?

And I must say, I didn't intend to discuss Nietzsche or evolution, but this has turned into a fascinating intellectual conversation, not what I'd intended, but fascinating nonetheless, yourself in peticular. Thought provoking. However philosophy (the mother of science) is my discipline, my biology is limited to what you get in high school and magazines. (Time, etc.) Yes, I was aware species is sort of inaccurate as everything is constantly evolving and will inevitably outgrow the classification which defines it as itself. Food for thought.

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

Sexual desire is natural, and to say that we should all withhold that desire is pure nonsense. Your right, I could have been celibate, but not for life. Once I met my wife I found someone I truly loved to be with and sex was very important to us, because it wasn't just bumping, grinding, and animal thrusting to us.

I obviously disagree with the first part, I won't reiterate my previous arguments, but i never meant to imply it wasn't "natural." And I must concede I didn't love any of my sexual partners. I can't quantify what difference this would make if any.