Bonfire of Teenagers or Without Music The World Dies

[The Wild Turkey]

When did Iggy talk about HHH? On his most recent show, describing his playlist, he commented that he was walking "the path of wilful obscurity"! Do you think Morrissey would like his own radio show? I think he would, and he'd be a riveting unpredictable listen, both for music choices and remarks, although it could take a few shows for him to get into his stride

He talked about it when he was promotin' Every Loser.

https://www.nme.com/news/music/iggy...oducer-andrew-watt-new-morrissey-song-3362492

 

[theprivilegeismine]

I would have said BOT just because it was recorded first. However, after hearing the recorded version of RWA I'm worried the production may be distractingly bad. The first 2 songs from WMTWD sounded decent. I didn't care for Notre Dame but there is enough unheard material to make me curious. My vote: WMTWD.

Same. Kinda. I prefer BoT tracks over those from WMTWD but Andrew Watt has screwed the pooch and probably made the whole thing unlistenable which is a real shame.

If he rerecorded BoT with a decent producer I would choose that.

 

[brody]

Even though the material from Bonfire seems much better than that shown from Without Music, I’d rather hear the latter purely for sentimental reasons. Being a new fan, the Whyte/Tobias/Galeano/Manzur/Buckley lineup will always be special to me as it was the first band I saw Moz with.

I’ve got mixed feelings about the Without Music tunes , however; musically ambitious but lyrically trite and uninspired. Pop Dropped is a killer tune but the lyrics elude me. Still, I have hope

 

[brody]

Also suspicious minds!! The thought of moz singing that has been on my mind since it was announced

 

[Ryan]

In some ways it would be better not to know a studio cut exists. I keep replaying the live performances, that's all I have for now.

Alas, I will hope for the best (but expect the worst)

You set your heights no higher than this hardwood floor?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

In some ways it would be better not to know a studio cut exists. I keep replaying the live performances, that's all I have for now.

Alas, I will hope for the best (but expect the worst)

then, get ready to be disappointed.

Yes, some may favor one’s over others, but Morrissey has yet to release a bad album.

I mean, how could he, with a voice like that!?

 

[Gregor Samsa]

then, get ready to be disappointed.

Yes, some may favor one’s over others, but Morrissey has yet to release a bad album.

I mean, how could he, with a voice like that!?

LIHS is actually very bad. And WPINOYB isn’t much better. But it’s not because of the voice.

 

[Billy A]

LIHS is actually very bad. And WPINOYB isn’t much better. But it’s not because of the voice.

It's all subjective isn't it. WPINOYB has actually aged rather well. LIHS less so, mainly due to the second half, which contains tracks that drag and leave you empty.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

LIHS is actually very bad. And WPINOYB isn’t much better. But it’s not because of the voice.

If either of those records was the only record he or any artist released, would you still think it bad?

As I said, if one compares one to others, sure they may favor some to others. It’s subjective, and for me makes little sense to label one good or bad, they’re simply different, and really they’re all great with something unique from each one to offer the listener, that’s if the listener is open to it, without judgement.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

If either of those records was the only record he or any artist released, would you still think it bad?

As I said, if one compares one to others, sure they may favor some to others. It’s subjective, and for me makes little sense to label one good or bad, they’re simply different, and really they’re all great with something unique from each one to offer the listener, that’s if the listener is open to it, without judgement.

Definitely! Especially LIHS. Songs like Israel, Protect Us, Girl From, Spent, etc etc, are awful no matter who recorded them.

Like you say (at least initially…), it’s subjective. Most, however, seem to lean more towards my opinion when it comes to those records, though (again, LIHS especially). So it has nothing to do with being ‘open’. When you say that, one is led to believe that you are under the impression that Morrissey (the artist) is infallible and can not release anything that isn’t ‘great’, and if the fans don’t like it, they’re close-minded and judgmental. Absolute silliness.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Definitely! Especially LIHS. Songs like Israel, Protect Us, Girl From, Spent, etc etc, are awful no matter who recorded them.

Like you say (at least initially…), it’s subjective. Most, however, seem to lean more towards my opinion when it comes to those records, though (again, LIHS especially). So it has nothing to do with being ‘open’. When you say that, one is led to believe that you are under the impression that Morrissey (the artist) is infallible and can not release anything that isn’t ‘great’, and if the fans don’t like it, they’re close-minded and judgmental. Absolute silliness.

no I get you, I’ve been there myself. And taste will dictate in general one’s choices, particularly to music genres. I guess my needs always change, and a song I may not like (or thought I didn’t like) today, I may love tomorrow, because that is what I’ll need in that moment. I’m open to that and trust my gut, rather than being closed, or closed minded and creating conflict in myself, I find it better to go with how I feel. Because today is not tomorrow, and I’m open to the possibility that not only will it be different, but I will too.

It has nothing to do with the artist being infallible or not. It’s more about if you want to
pass judgment and choose one over the other for reasons that you or a group mind has invented. I prefer to follow my intuition, my changing mood and needs. Let’s take an extreme example, and compare Notre Dame to Hand in Glove, well, one can either say that
one is bad and the other is good, or one can say, they are neither bad or good, but both are actually really good, because both are really different, and because of their unique differences, have something to offer to the one listening to it, if that listener is open to it.
And I know which one I’ll most likely gravitate to more often because of personal reasons (and some of these reasons may be a kind of conditioning) but I try to remain open to each song’s possibilities and listen to what I need in that moment.
But of course it’s easier, to pass judgment, as many do, and reinforce one’s judgment by continually criticizing a song, rather than being open to the possibility of one’s changing needs and open to what the song itself wants to share with you.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

no I get you, I’ve been there myself. And taste will dictate in general one’s choices, particularly to music genres. I guess my needs always change, and a song I may not like (or thought I didn’t like) today, I may love tomorrow, because that is what I’ll need in that moment. I’m open to that and trust my gut, rather than being closed, or closed minded and creating conflict in myself, I find it better to go with how I feel. Because today is not tomorrow, and I’m open to the possibility that not only will it be different, but I will too.

It has nothing to do with the artist being infallible or not. It’s more about if you want to
pass judgment and choose one over the other for reasons that you or a group mind has invented. I prefer to follow my intuition, my changing mood and needs. Let’s take an extreme example, and compare Notre Dame to Hand in Glove, well, one can either say that
one is bad and the other is good, or one can say, they are neither bad or good, but both are actually really good, because both are really different, and because of their unique differences, have something to offer to the one listening to it, if that listener is open to it.
And I know which one I’ll most likely gravitate to more often because of personal reasons (and some of these reasons may be a kind of conditioning) but I try to remain open to each song’s possibilities and listen to what I need in that moment.
But of course it’s easier, to pass judgment, as many do, and reinforce one’s judgment by continually criticizing a song, rather than being open to the possibility of one’s changing needs and open to what the song itself wants to share with you.

I think all of us have changed our minds regarding certain songs many times in our lives. And it’s a great feeling. That’s not really the issue.
Certain songs you (generic you) dislike today and tomorrow. Certain songs have yet to reveal themselves to you. Some never will. Some just don’t seem to appeal to you. Do you follow? I think most would resent being called closed-minded because of this.

Well, you did say that everything Moz does is ‘great’ and you imply that all of his songs are ‘really good but different’. That sounds like infallibility to me.

‘Reasons you have invented’? It’s called subjectivity and taste, something you yourself referenced initially. You’re making it sound like if you don’t like everything he’s ever recorded, you’re judgmental, closed-minded and controlled by some hive-mind.

I’m sure there are songs in the vast canon of pop music that even you dislike.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I think all of us have changed our minds regarding certain songs many times in our lives. And it’s a great feeling. That’s not really the issue.
Certain songs you (generic you) dislike today and tomorrow. Certain songs have yet to reveal themselves to you. Some never will. Some just don’t seem to appeal to you. Do you follow? I think most would resent being called closed-minded because of this.

Well, you did say that everything Moz does is ‘great’ and you imply that all of his songs are ‘really good but different’. That sounds like infallibility to me.

‘Reasons you have invented’? It’s called subjectivity and taste, something you yourself referenced initially. You’re making it sound like if you don’t like everything he’s ever recorded, you’re judgmental, closed-minded and controlled by some hive-mind.

I’m sure there are songs in the vast canon of pop music that even you dislike.

I like and I dislike, but that for me doesn’t mean the song or art is bad or good. It’s simply that one is different from another, and from my point of view, that is a good thing. Do you follow?

In regards to your comments on close-mindedness and the hive mind? Well, it is what it is. Better to accept what it is and how it influences one’s behavior and actions, and then go from there to make corrections where needed to be more open to the possibilities within any experience, it makes life more interesting.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I like and I dislike, but that for me doesn’t mean the song or art is bad or good. It’s simply that one is different from another, and from my point of view, that is a good thing. Do you follow?

In regards to your comments on close-mindedness and the hive mind? Well, it is what it is. Better to accept what it is and how it influences one’s behavior and actions, and then go from there to make corrections where needed to be more open to the possibilities within any experience, it makes life more interesting.

So it’s a matter of semantics? When one says “that song is bad”, what one often means is that one dislikes the song in question. One is stating a preference or opinion.

I don’t think ‘it is what it is’. I think it’s perfectly valid and normal to have a developed taste of one’s own (how strange it feels to defend subjectivity’s right to exist). I fail to see how uncritically liking everything would make life more interesting.

And like I said, most of us have probably changed our minds regarding songs many times in our lives.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Missed this, and felt I should address it with the question … Where did I say that? And if I did, it was most likely in the context of his voice always winning me over, followed by other personal reasons.

Again, I mean good because they are different. Especially in regards to his, what seems to me, a deliberate move on his part, in the change of style in his writing.

“and for me makes little sense to label one good or bad, they’re simply different, and really they’re all great with something unique from each one to offer the listener, that’s if the listener is open to it, without judgement.”

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

So it’s a matter of semantics? When one says “that song is bad”, what one often means is that one dislikes the song in question. One is stating a preference or opinion.

No. I think one can dislike a song in the moment without judging it as bad. I don’t know how else to explain it. They can also say they are not in the mood for this one and choose another, not because one is a better song, but simply because another song
might in that moment offer them something that the present song does not. But at the same time, the listener is open to the possibility that that may not always be the case.

I think there is a difference between …
1, condemning a song as bad and continuing
to criticize it in order to reinforce that one has made the ‘right’ decision. And 2, simply understanding that the song is not bad, but rather, it’s simply not what you need at the moment.

I don’t think ‘it is what it is’. I think it’s perfectly valid and normal to have a developed taste of one’s own (how strange it feels to defend subjectivity’s right to exist). I fail to see how uncritically liking everything would make life more interesting.

As I said, I do like and dislike. But I try to embrace the possibilities in the differences the songs offer, to be open minded to what each
individual song has to offer, rather than just dismissing it as bad. I understand how taste comes into play, especially in regards to genre, but here, I’m talking about something different.

When I said ‘it is what it is’ what I mean is, it’s healthy to be aware of conditioning and outside influences, and to make corrections where needed.

And like I said, most of us have probably changed our minds regarding songs many times in our lives.

I hope so.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

“and for me makes little sense to label one good or bad, they’re simply different, and really they’re all great with something unique from each one to offer the listener, that’s if the listener is open to it, without judgement.”

Yes, they are all great because of their differences, and if one is open, then they will recognize the greatness in what each song offers. I don’t think that’s really the same as saying ‘everything that Morrissey does is great’.

The ‘greatness’ comes from the listener being open to and being able to experience what the song has to offer. If one is closed, i.e., dismissed the song as bad, then of course they won’t get to have that experience of what is actually great about the song.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

No. I think one can dislike a song in the moment without judging it as bad. I don’t know how else to explain it. They can also say they are not in the mood for this one and choose another, not because one is a better song, but simply because another song
might in that moment offer them something that the present song does not. But at the same time, the listener is open to the possibility that that may not always be the case.

I think there is a difference between …
1, condemning a song as bad and continuing
to criticize it in order to reinforce that one has made the ‘right’ decision. And 2, simply understanding that the song is not bad, but rather, it’s simply not what you need at the moment.



As I said, I do like and dislike. But I try to embrace the possibilities in the differences the songs offer, to be open minded to what each
individual song has to offer, rather than just dismissing it as bad. I understand how taste comes into play, especially in regards to genre, but here, I’m talking about something different.

When I said ‘it is what it is’ what I mean is, it’s healthy to be aware of conditioning and outside influences, and to make corrections where needed.



I hope so.

I think most of us are open to the possibility that we one day might find some redeeming qualities with, say, Who Will Protect Us From The Police or Kerouac’s Crack, but that it’s more likely that we won’t.

I don’t think the continuing of saying that song x is bad has to do with reinforcing that one has made the right decision. If the topic is raised or if one is asked a question, one will answer and hopefully answer truthfully. You stated your opinion that Morrissey has yet to release a bad album (the phrase ‘has yet’ of course implies that there is a possibility that he somewhere down the line will). And I replied stating my opinion that he in fact has released two bad albums.

It’s not a question of thoughtless dismissal. Morrissey and his music has meant the world to me for more than 20 years. When I say that I like or dislike one of his songs or albums, I mean it.

Yes, but I’d like to believe that you and I both are intelligent enough to be able to form our own opinions and that we are not led by some mob dictating what we should and should not like.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Yes, they are all great because of their differences, and if one is open, then they will recognize the greatness in what each song offers. I don’t think that’s really the same as saying ‘everything that Morrissey does is great’.

The ‘greatness’ comes from the listener being open to and being able to experience what the song has to offer. If one is closed, i.e., dismissed the song as bad, then of course they won’t get to have that experience of what is actually great about the song.

If you’re saying that they’re all great, you are saying that everything Moz does is great. And you have every right to believe that. But I don’t agree with you.

But now you’re talking about personal experience. And there’s no debating that. A song can be great for one person, but awful for another. That’s subjectivity and personal experience. I don’t think there’s a universal, factual and indisputable truth that all Morrissey songs are undeniably great for everyone and that those who fail to experience this are judgmental and closed-minded.

 

[HeavenKnowsImMiserable]

Most bizarre track titles yet.

Agree with you there JM lol

I like his songs.
I mean, I was just trying to pun off a lyric from Panic, I didn’t put any more thought into it than that. I wasn’t expecting to be interrogated.
He means as much to me as anyone else who writes/sings songs I like.

Don't worry, I got the pun/reference! Although I have to disagree, Morrissey's music means more to me as I age.