It's not about healthcare

[Dave]

So is it about racism or not? Yes, no, depends on which side of your mouth you're talking out of at the time?

 

[Worm]

That's right, it's not all about healthcare.

Setting aside arguments about the merits of the bill - the more extreme elements of this fight, with all the accompanying apocalyptic rhetoric, violence and threats of secession is about race. Not simply the fact that Obama is black, but the fact that he is both powerful and an effective leader. He just won "Waterloo" after all.

This is about the end of white supremacy, and the assumption that white makes right. This is what the end of Privilege looks like; this is how a worldview crumbles.

My mind goes back to a quote from the very beginning of Obama's tenure, when an acquaintance repeated words heard over a dinner table: the Democrats were going to fail, because they were being led by a "n***er and a c**t."

There are certainly justifiable fiscal arguments to be made against some of the provisions in this healthcare bill. There are very good arguments to be made that it does not go far enough; but there can be no argument that passage of this bill represents real, positive change. It is a deeply flawed moral victory, and if it can be advanced to universal coverage, it will also provide the groundwork for truly effective fiscal change as well.

Reasoned opposition to this administration's agenda has some validity, but this kind of hysterical, apocalyptic, violent, hate-filled rhetoric is indicative of something that goes beyond the passage of fairly moderate healthcare legislation. This isn't all about racism, but it is about a grave threat to a profoundly racist ideology.

Eloquent analysis.

I've moved beyond tallying up the few good provisions in the bill to balance out the incredible missed opportunity. I'm happy for those who will live and prosper because of this bill, and but I cannot give credit to a President and a Congress for saving three lives when they might have saved five, and postponing a financial mess when they could have fixed it. We need to get back to real liberalism based on principles of social justice. Tune in to PBS tomorrow night for a reminder (not that you need one):

A Call To Conscience

 

[Dave]

P. S. Preggers, I thought you might like this clear-sighted little gem from 1964: "Whether you are a Christian or a Muslim or a Nationalist, we all have the same problem. They don't hang you because you're a Baptist, they hang you 'cause you're black. They don't attack me because I'm a Muslim, they attack me 'cause I'm black. They attack all of us for the same reason". Whaddya think? Was Malcolm X on to something?

The reason Malcolm X was assassinated by black Muslims was not because he was black or Muslim.

 

[bored]

We need to get back to real liberalism based on principles of social justice.

Regardless of politics and who is in office, how do you resolve the fact that this is a country pretty divided on how many people want liberalism and how people define social justice.

There are plenty of people that feel giving people free health insurance is a social injustice. They believe that every person should find their own answers to things like health insurance and consider all government social programs to be hand-outs to people who are either lazy or didn't choose the right path that would lead them to a lifestyle that is prosperous, self-sustaining and self-preserving.

 

[Worm]

Regardless of politics and who is in office, how do you resolve the fact that this is a country pretty divided on how many people want liberalism and how people define social justice.

There are plenty of people that feel giving people free health insurance is a social injustice. They believe that every person should find their own answers to things like health insurance and consider all government social programs to be hand-outs to people who are either lazy or didn't choose the right path that would lead them to a lifestyle that is prosperous, self-sustaining and self-preserving.

You're correct to point out it's a two-way street. To someone who has worked hard, paid his taxes, and lived within his means, it's insulting to think that "justice" means helping someone who doesn't live up to his obligations. I'm in that boat. I take care of my obligations. I don't need government assistance, though I've gotten it in the past. I get that point of view 100%.

Here's my opinion, and I don't ask or expect anyone to agree: as the saying goes, the playing field isn't level. The game is rigged. (Pick any sports metaphor you like.) I probably would have said that anyway, but you know politics is an absolute crock of shit when the Republicans denounce a health care bill they supported in years past as "socialism", on the one hand, and the Democrats are trying to say they scored the winning Hail Mary touchdown when by far the best option on the table, single payer, was roundly ignored, on the other. We're really seeing what this country is about right now, on all sides.

Given that fact, yes, I think we need to get back to old-fashioned progressive causes and stop with these ludicrous half-measures. People argue as if there's a right way and a wrong way, when in reality they're just choosing between roulette, poker, and blackjack to find the surest way to lose everything to the house; and the house always wins.

 

[bored]

Given that fact, yes, I think we need to get back to old-fashioned progressive causes and stop with these ludicrous half-measures. People argue as if there's a right way and a wrong way, when in reality they're just choosing between roulette, poker, and blackjack to find the surest way to lose everything to the house; and the house always wins.

Right, I get all this.. I guess my point is how to you get to something that only about half the people want and the other half don't regardless of what it is. Or in other words, how do you unite people who don't really want to be united? Funny name we have for our country. The only time we unite is when someone attacks us. I think we should have 3 countries; liberal, conservative, moderate. Put all 50 states up for draft. Coin flip for first pick.

Everyone registers. Based on registration that's how many states you get.

The country doesn't need to be contiguous because of technology. Everyone gets free passage w/o passport thru any country. Each country has it's own government.

Assets and debts of the current government get distributed proportionally to each country.

It would be really interesting to watch.

I'd be in the Moderate States of America.

 

[Worm]

Right, I get all this.. I guess my point is how to you get to something that only about half the people want and the other half don't regardless of what it is.

It's not as hard as you think.

What's the root of all evil? Start with that. The fact is, it is financially rewarding to spread lies and exploit the worst traits human beings possess. It is a problem as bad on the right as it is on the left. Money dominates, from the top of society to the bottom. Fix that first and watch how the rest of it gets easier.

Is that a pipe dream? Sure, but that's what I was talking about. Maybe we need to start with pipe dreams and work backward. Imagine if Obama and the Democrats had started with "Medicare For All" and worked backward toward a compromise, for example.

Or in other words, how do you unite people who don't really want to be united? Funny name we have for our country. The only time we unite is when someone attacks us. I think we should have 3 countries; liberal, conservative, moderate. Put all 50 states up for draft. Coin flip for first pick.

Everyone registers. Based on registration that's how many states you get.

The country doesn't need to be contiguous because of technology. Everyone gets free passage w/o passport thru any country. Each country has it's own government.

Assets and debts of the current government get distributed proportionally to each country.

It would be really interesting to watch.

I'd be in the Moderate States of America.

Pretty good idea! I'd probably sign up for that and nominate you President. Or Supervisor, or Shift Manager, or whatever a moderate leader is called.

This country can work as it's supposed to, we've just forgotten what it looks like. If you ask me, there are plenty of common principles for people on the left and right, liberal and conservative, to agree on. Everyone wants to work. Everyone wants to pay his share. Everyone wants to help himself and not burden anyone else. Everyone wants to see justice done in the world. Everyone wants peace. So why do we all squabble? Hmmmmm. Could it benefit someone?

 

[Anaesthesine]

Right, I get all this.. I guess my point is how to you get to something that only about half the people want and the other half don't regardless of what it is. Or in other words, how do you unite people who don't really want to be united? Funny name we have for our country. The only time we unite is when someone attacks us. I think we should have 3 countries; liberal, conservative, moderate. Put all 50 states up for draft. Coin flip for first pick.

Everyone registers. Based on registration that's how many states you get.

The country doesn't need to be contiguous because of technology. Everyone gets free passage w/o passport thru any country. Each country has it's own government.

Assets and debts of the current government get distributed proportionally to each country.

It would be really interesting to watch.

I'd be in the Moderate States of America.

Moderate America would be a lovely place to visit: Some form of universal health coverage with a public/private compromise, decent environmental regulations, religious tolerance, a reasonable public school system, sensible immigration policies, a pragmatic foreign policy, moderate taxes, gay civil unions (at the very least), support for reproductive freedoms, a healthy respect for scientific innovation and some form of Federal oversight on the banking system.

Personally, I'd take my chances in Liberal America: Not-for-profit universal health care, a strict separation of church and state, equal pay for equal work, strong Federal regulatory agencies and environmental laws, legalized gay marriage, strong labor unions and a tofurkey in every pot. Sure, taxes would be a bit higher, but we'd have a strong social safety net, a thriving multicultural arts scene, liberal drug laws and Hollywood!

Conservative America - now there's an interesting place: A Christian theocracy with strict religious laws, an aggressively interventionist foreign policy, legalized torture, a universal right to carry concealed weapons, full deregulation of the banking system, privatized everything, very strict immigration, few (if any) labor or environmental protections, low taxes, no social safety net, a weak central government, and a ban on abortion and birth control. I guess rich folks would reside here, but I bet they would all have vacation homes somewhere else.

Which brings me to a divisive joke:

A Texan and a New Yorker are walking along the beach. They come across a bottle and start polishing it up, whereupon a genie emerges and says "I will grant each of you one wish."

The Texan goes first: "Genie, I want you to build a wall around Texas one thousand feet high - good and solid, so that no undesirables can get in."

The genie closes his eyes and nods: "It is done."

Now it is the New Yorker's turn: "Genie, is that wall watertight?"

"Of course" comes the reply.

"Fill it" says the New Yorker.

 

[Worm]

A Texan and a New Yorker are walking along the beach. They come across a bottle and start polishing it up, whereupon a genie emerges and says "I will grant each of you one wish."

The Texan goes first: "Genie, I want you to build a wall around Texas one thousand feet high - good and solid, so that no undesirables can get in."

The genie closes his eyes and nods: "It is done."

Now it is the New Yorker's turn: "Genie, is that wall watertight?"

"Of course" comes the reply.

"Fill it" says the New Yorker.

 

[malvachat]

Interesting read.
Not my words but food for thought.

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate
energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.

You didn't get mad when we gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

You finally got mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all okay with you, but helping other Americans...oh hell no.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Interesting read.
Not my words but food for thought.

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate
energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.

You didn't get mad when we gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

You finally got mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all okay with you, but helping other Americans...oh hell no.

Define "you." All of those things made me mad. More than mad. Except the last, of course.

 

[malvachat]

The clue is at the top.

"Not my words but food for thought"

But if your on a diet,or not hungry,forget it.

 

[kissmyshadestoo]

I love this:

Gov't run:
-Fannie Mae-status: broke
-Freddie Mac-status: broke
-Social Security-status: broke
-Medicare/Medicaid-status: broke
-Dept of Energy set up to reduce dependence on foreign oil employs >16,000 people, cost billions a year to run and oil imports are higher then ever.
-Gov't now holds power over the 3 big US auto makers and 17 major US banks.
-A couple years ago Congress voted in automatic annual raises to avoid the yearly embarassment of voting themselves yearly increases.

Of the people, by the people, for the people?

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

The clue is at the top.

"Not my words but food for thought"

But if your on a diet,or not hungry,forget it.

No, I understand. Where did you find it? Most of us have been watching in dumb horror at what our country has gotten up to in the past decade... and then some. The first time I voted, in the Presidential election in 1991, I was so hopeful. I believed, then. I believed that Obama was the better of the two options, last time, too. I still think he was, but our "two options" didn't differ a huge amount, it turns out.

I don't want anyone to think that Americans are 100% peachy keen happy with our government. Many, many of us are not. But we're up against the Sarah Palins and Joe the Plumbers, people who are woefully ignorant, and proud of it. Our educational system was designed to train people to be good little factory workers who accept their lot in life as raw material for corporate ambitions. But then those corporations sold all the factory jobs, and now nobody actually knows how to think critically. It's terrifying.

 

[malvachat]

No, I understand. Where did you find it? .

At one of my many visit places.

http://www.p2pconsortium.com/index.php?showtopic=18409&hl=

 

[Anaesthesine]

Of the people, by the people, for the people?

America was an experiment, not a promise.

I think things were going rather well for a while there; despite everything this huge democracy managed to evolve and keep it together while wreaking a minimum amount of havoc. Now we're angry, divided and broke, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

We The People blew it, big time.

 

[Girl-with-the-Thorn]

I know this has now turned into a solely political debate, but could someone please explain what these "healthcare reforms" are all about? I am very ignorant about things like this- all I know is that we (in the UK) have the choice of either the NHS or private healthcare, and in America you have to pay for insurance in order to get treatment.

 

[bored]

The clue is at the top.

"Not my words but food for thought"

But if your on a diet,or not hungry,forget it.

Plenty of people got mad but the people in office refused to do anything about it.

Dennis Kucinich tried to impeach Bush and Cheney and arrest them. The rest of the DEMssaid no. I don't know why but probably because they want to be able to abuse the power the same way the GOP did.

I personally will not vote for anyone who supported the war, the bank bailouts, the patriot act or even this piece of shit health care system.

The people in this country are apathetic to most issues and get excited over the most inane things and over-react when they should uder-react and vice versa.

I'm moving to Canada.

 

[kissmyshadestoo]

America was an experiment, not a promise.

I think things were going rather well for a while there; despite everything this huge democracy managed to evolve and keep it together while wreaking a minimum amount of havoc. Now we're angry, divided and broke, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

We The People blew it, big time.

Good topic and fun discussion.

How can we possibly change the direction of the government as "we the people"? I mean, they don't listen to a word we are saying.

 

[Worm]

Good topic and fun discussion.

How can we possibly change the direction of the government as "we the people"? I mean, they don't listen to a word we are saying.

Labor organizations would have been the best answer, but the power of labor to make a difference has been diminished because the industrial infrastructure of this country has seriously eroded.

It sounds absurd to say this but the middle class has to organize and go on strike. Stop paying taxes, stop paying credit cards and loans, stop shopping, stop working, stop making the machine go round.

Currently this is a ridiculous impossibility. It might not be if people changed how they thought of their lives, how and what they taught their children, and what they demanded from their individual communities. Toward that end, public intellectuals, independent politicians, artists, religious leaders, and teachers can make an impact without having to bow to pressure from higher-up.

Anaesthesine is correct, though, because we are failing to make a difference. It really is us. We are all to blame. As individuals we can do almost nothing, so we've given up. Somehow we have to figure out how to organize ourselves again. On this point I have been influenced by Kevin Baker's article in the latest issue of Harper's discussing the long history of organizing for change in the U.S. It's well worth reading.