Wikileaks story

[billybu69]

But doesn't it seem to be an unnecessarily difficult thing to do to "get" Assange and Wikileaks, getting him trumped up on false charges of rape in Sweden and then hope for an extradition? Wouldn't it be easier for CIA to just e.g. kidnap Assange and bring him to american soil and then arrest him there if they could actually find something that they could prosecute him for, which anyway doesn't seem so easy to find? This whole conspiracy theory just seems too far-fetched to me.

And the declared war on the banks/financial system, didn't he declare it just a month ago, i.e. after the rape charges in Sweden? And btw, what is the Kaupthing leaks? Haven't heard of that one.

Assange was here in England, for the CIA to kidnap this high profile subject from a British street would be a major embarassment and an insult especially if you consider the "special relationship", you have to remember The UK these days is dictated over by self rightieous liberal wets, political correctness reigns supreme. Assanges lawyer would make such a noise, he's been on several TV shows already there would be no hiding what had happened. The UK doesn't extradite to countrys where the death penalty may be imposed. We are not complicit in torture and won't aid others who are, our shit don't stink.
If our closest allie pulled a stunt like kidnap on theses shores it would be tentamount to an act of war. Much better to raike up a suposedly forgotten two month old complaint and breath life into it.

 

[Emil]

Assange was here in England, for the CIA to kidnap this high profile subject from a British street would be a major embarassment and an insult especially if you consider the "special relationship", you have to remember The UK these days is dictated over by self rightieous liberal wets, political correctness reigns supreme. Assanges lawyer would make such a noise, he's been on several TV shows already there would be no hiding what had happened. The UK doesn't extradite to countrys where the death penalty may be imposed. We are not complicit in torture and won't aid others who are, our shit don't stink.
If our closest allie pulled a stunt like kidnap on theses shores it would be tentamount to an act of war. Much better to raike up a suposedly forgotten two month old complaint and breath life into it.

Ok, fair points. But I am still having difficulties believing that the whole thing is a conspiracy orchestrated by CIA. And neither does Sweden extradite people who run the risk of being sentenced to death, btw.

 

[Worm]

Ok, fair points. But I am still having difficulties believing that the whole thing is a conspiracy orchestrated by CIA. And neither does Sweden extradite people who run the risk of being sentenced to death, btw.

You're focusing too narrowly on the CIA. There are other kinds of corruption. The U.S. is a bully with many tentacles. For instance, the WikiLeaks papers expose the pressure the U.S. State Department put on judges in the Spanish Audiencia Nacional to abandon plans to prosecute U.S. soldiers and agents suspected of torture, kidnapping, and murder. It was negotiated Mafia-style: do this or else. There are many ways the U.S. is probably trying to get Assange. Plus, as I said, if the guy hasn't been knocked off yet it's probably only due to the CIA's incompetence. They're not always on top of their game, as some older Cubans might tell you.

 

[M-in-Oz]

Why, according to Assange's lawyer Mark Stephens, did Sweden's prosecutor refuse to meet him regarding the rape charges? The rape charges were dismissed in Stockholm and then a politician restated the charge in Gothenburg & still the prosecutors (he was there for 40 days) refused to meet Assange. Also, for the women, why hasn't this been sorted out? Surely they deserve to have the charges prosecuted?
Sweden has "extraordinary rendition rights to the US" (Mark Stephens).

It's such a sad thing - journalists are supposed to get information and protect their sources - he hasn't done anything wrong there.
Pity the Australian government are not offering any consular assistance, the govt. should be helping a citizen.

 

[Media Whore]

It's such a sad thing - journalists are supposed to get information and protect their sources - he hasn't done anything wrong there.
Pity the Australian government are not offering any consular assistance, the govt. should be helping a citizen.

The source has been revealed (by his own stupidity). Bradley Manning currently sits in a cell in Quantico.

 

[Qvist]

Why, according to Assange's lawyer Mark Stephens, did Sweden's prosecutor refuse to meet him regarding the rape charges? The rape charges were dismissed in Stockholm and then a politician restated the charge in Gothenburg & still the prosecutors (he was there for 40 days) refused to meet Assange. Also, for the women, why hasn't this been sorted out? Surely they deserve to have the charges prosecuted?
Sweden has "extraordinary rendition rights to the US" (Mark Stephens).

It's such a sad thing - journalists are supposed to get information and protect their sources - he hasn't done anything wrong there.
Pity the Australian government are not offering any consular assistance, the govt. should be helping a citizen.

Of course he's done something wrong. This is not a question of normal journalism. Wikileaks are publishing classified information that has been obtained through theft, which is a serious offense and for extremely good reasons. The guy's a criminal. If an American citizen did this in the US, he would face prison for a long time. So would a British citizen who did this in Britain, with FO cables. Or any other country.

And sure, do let's assess his rape charges on the basis of what his lawyer's telling us, because there can't possibly be any question that these are trumped up charges, right? After all, the Swedes have a long history of doing the US' dirty work for them.

What Wikileaks is doing doesn't just strike at the US, it strikes at everybody. You can't run international relations if you risk everything committed to paper in your system ending up in the news. It comporomises the basic ability of states to function, and can undo years of patient work. In the worst case it can cost lives.

It doesn't help that hackers are now apparently attacking left and right against targets they perceive as Wikileaks' "enemies" - such as the website of the Swedish government! Real nice. Self-appointed prophets spreading classified information left and right, and hackers attacking VISA. As if this was the Matrix or something. Wake up, cowboys - this is actual damage in the actual real world, it's not a film and you sure aren't heroes.

For my part, I hope Assange is extradited, tried, and put away for a long time - in proper fashion and for the right reasons. His rape charge is neither here nor there.

 

[Qvist]

I wouldn't think there would be many legal systems would attempt to prosecute for failure to fit a condom even if a willing partner requested it, and as for "he sliped one in while we sleeping your honor", what prosecuter would run with that one? These are not crimes that i feel in normal circumstances would be prosecuted, and its that where pressure has been brought to bear. Maybe?

Er, being raped while asleep is not something that is reasonable to prosecute?

 

[Emil]

Of course he's done something wrong. This is not a question of normal journalism. Wikileaks are publishing classified information that has been obtained through theft, which is a serious offense and for extremely good reasons. The guy's a criminal. If an American citizen did this in the US, he would face prison for a long time. So would a British citizen who did this in Britain, with FO cables. Or any other country.

But what is the difference between Wikileaks/Assange on the one hand and newspapers like New York Times or Der Spiegel on the other hand publishing classified information? It isn't just Wikileaks that publishes the information but also respected newspapers and if Assange is to face prison then of course the same should be the case for the editors in chief for The New York Times and other newspapers who have published the material. Or what is the difference between Wikileaks publishing the classified papers and the publication of the Pentagon Papers by Washington Post or whatever newspaper it was who published them 40 years ago? The Pentagon Papers was also obtained through theft. I think was Assange has done is a good thing and I'm really looking forward to the publication of the documents regarding american banks. What it all boils down to is a question of the freedom of the press. What now is done against Assange/Wikileaks is an attack against the freedom of the press and the freedom of the internet.

 

[Media Whore]

For those of you compelled to sign a petition.

http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/?slideshow

 

[Media Whore]

Of course he's done something wrong. This is not a question of normal journalism. Wikileaks are publishing classified information that has been obtained through theft, which is a serious offense and for extremely good reasons. The guy's a criminal. If an American citizen did this in the US, he would face prison for a long time. So would a British citizen who did this in Britain, with FO cables. Or any other country.

Not strictly true. If he (or any journalist or organisation for that matter) can prove that publishing that material was in and on behalf of the public interest than he can publish material obtained illegally.

Here is an interesting blog about it by Roy Greenslade.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-the-us-embassy-cables

 

[Worm]

Wake up, cowboys - this is actual damage in the actual real world, it's not a film and you sure aren't heroes.

What of the actual damage in the actual real world caused by the United States, which WikiLeaks may (though I doubt will) help to stop?

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

For my part, I hope Assange is extradited, tried, and put away for a long time - in proper fashion and for the right reasons. His rape charge is neither here nor there.

So you subscribe to the "no snitching" philosophy? That's a gross perversion of "those who live in glass houses..." That's one root reason America is in such a mess--and is dragging the rest of the world with it. We're stirring up more trouble in the Middle East, while pretending that we are making peace. That's fundamentally not okay.

 

[Black Cloud]

Why, according to Assange's lawyer Mark Stephens, did Sweden's prosecutor refuse to meet him regarding the rape charges? The rape charges were dismissed in Stockholm and then a politician restated the charge in Gothenburg & still the prosecutors (he was there for 40 days) refused to meet Assange. Also, for the women, why hasn't this been sorted out? Surely they deserve to have the charges prosecuted?
Sweden has "extraordinary rendition rights to the US" (Mark Stephens).

It's because their case came in flatpack and they had to build it themselves, but the instructions weren't very clear and they couldn't find the Allen wrench...

 

[billybu69]

Er, being raped while asleep is not something that is reasonable to prosecute?

To enter a room and rape someone while they sleep is rape, to roll over when your already in bed with some one and attempt slip a liittle drowsy one in is just shits n kicks. If memory serves i think i got my second son that way.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

To enter a room and rape someone while they sleep is rape, to roll over when your already in bed with some one and attempt slip a liittle drowsy one in is just shits n kicks. If memory serves i think i got my second son that way.

Nice. Really nice. Thinking like that will get you divorced, because we can only take so much of it.

Granted, the rape charges have nothing at all to do with his WikiLeaks activity, but it would probably do well for us all to separate the two and accept that the Swedish government is making an effort to put one thumb down on him so the wolves can have at him.

 

[billy scissors]

To enter a room and rape someone while they sleep is rape, to roll over when your already in bed with some one and attempt slip a liittle drowsy one in is just shits n kicks. If memory serves i think i got my second son that way.

who said that romance is dead?

 

[Worm]

So you subscribe to the "no snitching" philosophy? That's a gross perversion of "those who live in glass houses..." That's one root reason America is in such a mess--and is dragging the rest of the world with it. We're stirring up more trouble in the Middle East, while pretending that we are making peace. That's fundamentally not okay.

I don't mean this is a response to Qvist's opinions on this particular aspect of the subject, since I don't have a clue about what they might be.

Speaking generally to your point, what the negative reaction to Assange and the WikiLeaks affair shows about many people, across all spectrums of society, is not just that people hate snitches, but that people are supportive and in many cases enthusiastic about the state's right to exert unlimited power outside the jurisdiction of the law, in secret and without answering to any authority outside itself. "The less I know, the better" basically amounts to full permission for the security state apparatus to abuse its power. If your neighbor is kidnapped in the middle of the night by jack-booted "heroes" with badges and whisked away to a secret offshore prison to be tortured into a vegatative state, not to worry, go back to bed, Big Brother's got your best interests in mind. So the thinking goes, and so the thinking always goes when free people give up their liberty in exchange for quiet neighborhoods and cheap goods. Trouble is, that situation never lasts as long as they think it will.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I don't mean this is a response to Qvist's opinions on this particular aspect of the subject, since I don't have a clue about what they might be.

Speaking generally to your point, what the negative reaction to Assange and the WikiLeaks affair shows about many people, across all spectrums of society, is not just that people hate snitches, but that people are supportive and in many cases enthusiastic about the state's right to exert unlimited power outside the jurisdiction of the law, in secret and without answering to any authority outside itself. "The less I know, the better" basically amounts to full permission for the security state apparatus to abuse its power. If your neighbor is kidnapped in the middle of the night by jack-booted "heroes" with badges and whisked away to a secret offshore prison to be tortured into a vegatative state, not to worry, go back to bed, Big Brother's got your best interests in mind. So the thinking goes, and so the thinking always goes when free people give up their liberty in exchange for quiet neighborhoods and cheap goods. Trouble is, that situation never lasts as long as they think it will.

I've gone through several tiers of reaction to Assange's activity since first reading about him in a New Yorker profile some months back. (Read it here.) My first was that same, head-in-sand defensiveness. Next I worried about the direct, immediate harm of his revelations--much like John Kass' thoughts, here. But ultimately we must realize that we're horrified because we're scared. We're scared to learn of what's been done in our names (not just us Americans, you're all in on it, too) and of what the effects will be. Kass is afraid for the tiny, local middlemen who will be blamed, but doesn't acknowledge that the information Assange has made available steps higher up the ladder of blame. Those hapless citizens are in danger--we are all in danger--not because of the revelations, but because of the substance of them.

 

[Media Whore]

What if the information that was leaked came from China for instance? So one example would be China's foreign secretary orders its diplomats to spy on members of the UN (in addition to not paying their annual UN fees). Would it make a difference to reactions?

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

What if the information that was leaked came from China for instance? So one example would be China's foreign secretary orders its diplomats to spy on members of the UN (in addition to not paying their annual UN fees). Would it make a difference to reactions?

Why would you assume that does not already happen? The only difference is that Assange, as far as we know, is loyal to no state. He posts everything he gets, regardless of who it favors, doesn't he? The fact that it seem most detrimental to United States interests is indicative only of the fact that the United States is up to the most covert trouble.