TQID vs. S,HWC

[Worm]

I'm vaguely tempted to troll you - stop badmouthing one of my favourite songs ! (Cue "Negativity" theme music)


More seriously , I'd genuinely like to hear a bit more elaboration on the idea of the song's lyrics being unusually "... petulant and resoundingly unimaginative..." . I don't agree ( or is it , as ever, that I don't understand ?). I don't see them as being so very distinct to the rest of Morrissey's words ...

What's the "negativity" theme music? I think it should be "Sorrow Will Come In The End". I mean, that was a troll song trolling a troll. What could be better?

For starters, the title. "Unhappy Birthday" is, I'm sorry to say, well short of imaginative. It's not a clever play on words, is it? At least, not on the level we expect from the greatest lyricist of the last 25 years? "You're evil and you lie" is way too blunt. The song's sentiments are equally blunt, nothing but moaning vindictiveness. All you get is the anger. There's almost nothing you can glean from the lyrics about what went wrong or why.

Compare it to "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now". That's a bone-simple idea, essentially a "f*** work" song. But look how interesting Morrissey makes it, with the play on Sandie Shaw's old song, the drunken haze, "Caligula would have blushed", and a very simply put, yet very profound question about why, exactly, we devote so much time to an activity we hate. The sentiment is simple, but the lyrics are fresh and interesting.

More than that, there's a sense in "Heaven" that another world is possible. Like I said about "I Know It's Over", I get the feeling, even listening to the gloomiest of Morrissey's songs, that there's still some faint hope that life, after all, may not be so horrible. I can hear it even in something as unrelievedly dour as "Last Night I Dreamt", believe it or not. All I can hear in "Unhappy Birthday" is spite and spleen, wiith not even the trace of a hope that tomorrow will be less shitty than today. And I can't think of many Morrissey lyrics in which that's true.

 

[Amy]

All I can hear in "Unhappy Birthday" is spite and spleen, wiith not even the trace of a hope that tomorrow will be less shitty than today. And I can't think of many Morrissey lyrics in which that's true.

I'd like to add "Sorry Doesn't Help" and "I'm OK By Myself" to that hopeless canon...

 

[123xyz]

What's the "negativity" theme music? I think it should be "Sorrow Will Come In The End". I mean, that was a troll song trolling a troll. What could be better? .

I know what could be better - the "Morrissey-Solo.com" theme song I'm just about to post in the "Downloads" forum.


Oh, and thanks for the further detail on your perspective. I'll get back to it shortly...

 

[Worm]

I'd like to add "Sorry Doesn't Help" and "I'm OK By Myself" to that hopeless canon...

Well, heh, that's another story. Morrissey's latter-day stuff is probably far bleaker than his earlier work. The difference being-- and it's a crucial one-- he, himself, has found a small measure of happiness once denied him. Life is a pigsty, but hey presto, explosive kegs! It seems to be the perspective of a man who has given up trying to change the world, or even believing the world can improve, yet finding personal gratification nonetheless. Probably the perspective of many middle-aged people, I'm guessing.

 

[123xyz]

What's the "negativity" theme music? I think it should be "Sorrow Will Come In The End". I mean, that was a troll song trolling a troll. What could be better?

For starters, the title. "Unhappy Birthday" is, I'm sorry to say, well short of imaginative. It's not a clever play on words, is it? At least, not on the level we expect from the greatest lyricist of the last 25 years? "You're evil and you lie" is way too blunt. The song's sentiments are equally blunt, nothing but moaning vindictiveness. All you get is the anger. There's almost nothing you can glean from the lyrics about what went wrong or why.

Compare it to "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now". That's a bone-simple idea, essentially a "f*** work" song. But look how interesting Morrissey makes it, with the play on Sandie Shaw's old song, the drunken haze, "Caligula would have blushed", and a very simply put, yet very profound question about why, exactly, we devote so much time to an activity we hate. The sentiment is simple, but the lyrics are fresh and interesting.

More than that, there's a sense in "Heaven" that another world is possible. Like I said about "I Know It's Over", I get the feeling, even listening to the gloomiest of Morrissey's songs, that there's still some faint hope that life, after all, may not be so horrible. I can hear it even in something as unrelievedly dour as "Last Night I Dreamt", believe it or not. All I can hear in "Unhappy Birthday" is spite and spleen, wiith not even the trace of a hope that tomorrow will be less shitty than today. And I can't think of many Morrissey lyrics in which that's true.

I'm at a loss ... I'm not sure how to further outline my own position. I'd go as far as to say that, lyrically, "UB" is somewhat unformed but the bile and anger doesn't particularly bother me. Perhaps because I've always disliked the excessively twee lyrics/tunes moreso and the very lack of much in the way of witticisms etc. gives it an open , plain, quality that acts as a nice contrast to the more stylised and crafted works ? Also , that moribund defiance just isn't so unappealing ... it's like a dying man rousing himself to spit in the face of his murderer before sinking back ...

I'm still thinking over this one ...

 

[123xyz]

I'd like to add "Sorry Doesn't Help" and "I'm OK By Myself" to that hopeless canon...

I don't see those two songs as part of a " ... hopeless canon ..." at all , Amy. They remind me of a quote by that guy who wrote "The Great War & Moderm Memory"... umm, Fussell, is it ? Something Fussell ?

Anyhow, he wrote (I'm paraphrasing) that while the world and life may be personally endearing or enjoyable ( or not , for that matter) , he felt that it was , at the end of it all, absurd.
That absurdity might then suggest to any of us that adherence to and , indeed, chasing after, the opinions of others is more of a dead end than it might seem. That's what I hear in the two songs you mentioned - a proud, narrow-eyed glare complemented by an arched eyebrow issuing something of a disclaimer. A man enjoying discovering that his old fears/foes/ can be ( at least ,partly) tossed aside ...



There's too much waffle in that , I know - I'm having trouble making it any more coherent.

 

[Skylarker]

Excellent, although I'd leave "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side" off the album (keeping it as a standalone single) and move "Some Girls" to the end. I think it's the best album-closer they recorded.

I agree Some Girls should close the record but if you're gonna add Asleep then it really has to be the last song.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

I really love them both equally, but according to last fm, I have played S,HWC more than TQID
this is because of the 200 plays of "A Rush & A Push" over the last 5 years
however, I can still remember buying my cassette of TQID and playing it to death for a long, long time...

 

[Cornflakes]

For starters, the title. "Unhappy Birthday" is, I'm sorry to say, well short of imaginative. It's not a clever play on words, is it? At least, not on the level we expect from the greatest lyricist of the last 25 years? "You're evil and you lie" is way too blunt. The song's sentiments are equally blunt, nothing but moaning vindictiveness. All you get is the anger. There's almost nothing you can glean from the lyrics about what went wrong or why.

All I can hear in "Unhappy Birthday" is spite and spleen, wiith not even the trace of a hope that tomorrow will be less shitty than today. And I can't think of many Morrissey lyrics in which that's true.

This just about nails it. But I don't think its even specifically the negativity. Frankly Mr Shankly is an incredibly spiteful song (footnote: it's about Geoff Travis), but it has the interesting conceit of Morrissey-as-office-junior, some funny lines and an unusual and interesting arrangement. Unhappy Birthday really has no content other than the message "I don't like you" and a "lie"/"die"/"cry" rhyme. And yes, quite right, a title that seems to have been picked up at Poundstretchers.

 

[Amy]

I don't see those two songs as part of a " ... hopeless canon ..." at all , Amy. They remind me of a quote by that guy who wrote "The Great War & Moderm Memory"... umm, Fussell, is it ? Something Fussell ?

Anyhow, he wrote (I'm paraphrasing) that while the world and life may be personally endearing or enjoyable ( or not , for that matter) , he felt that it was , at the end of it all, absurd.
That absurdity might then suggest to any of us that adherence to and , indeed, chasing after, the opinions of others is more of a dead end than it might seem. That's what I hear in the two songs you mentioned - a proud, narrow-eyed glare complemented by an arched eyebrow issuing something of a disclaimer. A man enjoying discovering that his old fears/foes/ can be ( at least ,partly) tossed aside ...
There's too much waffle in that , I know - I'm having trouble making it any more coherent.

That's quite a nice way to look at it, yeah - a sort of re-affirmation of identity? All I hear in those songs, though, is a man who is deeply unhappy - and has been for so long that he's now resigned himself to that unhappiness and closed himself off emotionally - full circle back to 1982. The Greek interview just cements that position for me.

 

[Amy]

Well, heh, that's another story. Morrissey's latter-day stuff is probably far bleaker than his earlier work. The difference being-- and it's a crucial one-- he, himself, has found a small measure of happiness once denied him. Life is a pigsty, but hey presto, explosive kegs! It seems to be the perspective of a man who has given up trying to change the world, or even believing the world can improve, yet finding personal gratification nonetheless. Probably the perspective of many middle-aged people, I'm guessing.

Has he? Does getting your leg over a few times in Rome equate to lasting happiness in the present? To me, he sounds more alone than he ever was. He sounds like he's 'given up' in the worst sense of the word. I hope that personal gratification does exist somewhere, I just don't see ant evidence for it in the things he says, does and writes. I hope I'm wrong. I hope his personal life is a riot of dinner parties and mad sex and jet-setting around the world with close friends, but I can't see it.

 

[Worm]

I agree Some Girls should close the record but if you're gonna add Asleep then it really has to be the last song.

Good point. "Asleep" would sound weird if it were put anywhere but the end.

 

[Worm]

This just about nails it. But I don't think its even specifically the negativity. Frankly Mr Shankly is an incredibly spiteful song (footnote: it's about Geoff Travis), but it has the interesting conceit of Morrissey-as-office-junior, some funny lines and an unusual and interesting arrangement. Unhappy Birthday really has no content other than the message "I don't like you" and a "lie"/"die"/"cry" rhyme. And yes, quite right, a title that seems to have been picked up at Poundstretchers.

Negativity is a hot topic in the forum these days.

I absolutely agree with you about "Frankly, Mr. Shankly". My opinion about Morrissey's "negativity" is that there are really two kinds: "I hate X" and "I hate X (and I hold out hope that X may one day change or disappear)".

The obvious thing about "Frankly, Mr. Shankly" is that he's spiteful toward his boss (a thinly-veiled Geoff Travis) but he's quitting. Work is terrible, but there's always a chance to leave, see the world, and contract a quality STD or two. In "Unhappy Birthday" the sentiment is more like "I hate you and I'm going to shoot myself". Where do you go from there? Honestly, I don't even think "Last Night I Dreamt" is that bleak.

If you compare it to "Stop Me", it's as if it was penned by a different songwriter altogether. In "Stop Me", the guy has fallen out of love with his girlfriend, but Morrissey tells his story in an interesting way, with lots of colorful details, and best of all it isn't ham-fisted and tone deaf. Morrissey wrote a break-up song built around a subtle observation. The lyrics document that odd little period when you fall out love but still rationalize it a little to yourself, trying to hang on, or maybe you've admitted the truth to yourself but don't have the courage to tell the other person. If "Stop Me" had been written in "Unhappy Birthday" mode-- or like the mode in which he's written many of his current songs-- the same idea would be expressed in a song called "I Don't Love You Anymore", with lines like "I woke up and despised you" or "I know you don't want to hear me say this/But I never want to see your face again/Ohhhhh!", etc.

 

[Worm]

I'm at a loss ... I'm not sure how to further outline my own position. I'd go as far as to say that, lyrically, "UB" is somewhat unformed but the bile and anger doesn't particularly bother me. Perhaps because I've always disliked the excessively twee lyrics/tunes moreso and the very lack of much in the way of witticisms etc. gives it an open , plain, quality that acts as a nice contrast to the more stylised and crafted works ? Also , that moribund defiance just isn't so unappealing ... it's like a dying man rousing himself to spit in the face of his murderer before sinking back ...

I'm still thinking over this one ...

You shouldn't think it over. If you like it, you like it. I'm the one who is wrong.

I'll add this: I love the idea of a "dying man rousing himself to spit in the face of his murderer". I do. But my point above is that you don't know what the hell has caused this person to tumble into the pit of despair in which he finds himself. I don't need a ten-minute Bob Dylan-style ballad, telling me a Canterbury Tale about the guy's relationship, but I'd like to know a little more. Why? Well, for this reason. There's a chance that the guy has been a victim of some treachery or other at the hands of the person celebrating the birthday. But given the lack of information it's also possible that the person celebrating the birthday is a normal man or woman who simply moved on, in which case the "I" in the song is just a petulant child throwing a tantrum. A garden variety drama queen too wound-up and self-important to put on some Annie Lennox, eat six pints of Haagen Dazs, and move on. It's like reading only the last act of "Hamlet"-- why do I care about some Danish asshole running around stabbing people because his Dad died?

 

[Worm]

Has he? Does getting your leg over a few times in Rome equate to lasting happiness in the present? To me, he sounds more alone than he ever was. He sounds like he's 'given up' in the worst sense of the word. I hope that personal gratification does exist somewhere, I just don't see ant evidence for it in the things he says, does and writes. I hope I'm wrong. I hope his personal life is a riot of dinner parties and mad sex and jet-setting around the world with close friends, but I can't see it.

I said "a small measure", not "lasting happiness". Based on any normal, human scale of measurement, Morrissey may not be happy. However, on a Morrissey scale, yes, he's doing the equivalent of orgies and jet-setting. It's a tremendous advance if you go from an almost total belief that connection with another human being is impossible, in your teens and twenties, to actually having a relationship or two in your thirties and forties.

And "given up", well, it depends on what you mean. The worst sense? Maybe. On the other hand, there's a kind of giving up where you become resigned to the world as it is and seek out some smaller happiness for yourself, on your own terms. That's what I hear in his present-day music. In The Smiths, I believe he was personally unhappy and saw his misery reflected in, and in many cases caused by, the state of the world outside his bedroom. The Smiths were an assault on the world. At some point in the mid-90s he began to find more personal happiness and started accepting that maybe the world was following a course he couldn't correct. His anger at the world shifted into stout defiance-- refusal-- and that's why I think the colossal NO he shouts in the face of the world has great meaning beyond a mere "giving up".

 

[123xyz]

You shouldn't think it over. If you like it, you like it. I'm the one who is wrong.

. But given the lack of information it's also possible that the person celebrating the birthday is a normal man or woman who simply moved on, in which case the "I" in the song is just a petulant child throwing a tantrum. A garden variety drama queen too wound-up and self-important to put on some Annie Lennox, eat six pints of Haagen Dazs, and move on. It's like reading only the last act of "Hamlet"-- why do I care about some Danish asshole running around stabbing people because his Dad died?

Spoiler alert - Quibbling follows


I'd argue it isn't at all analogous to the Hamlet comparison. Why ? I guess because it's likely that the song "UB" isn't heard in a vacuum. By the time we've listened to that song , odds are we've already made our way through the album to that point or , failing that, have at least heard other Smiths/Moz songs or ,even failing that, have some vague notion of Moz as articulate and biting in his lyrics.

The absence of back-story/follow-up in "UB" perhaps isn't that at all ; rather it's given, however indirectly, by the rest of the album or even by our previous understanding of Morrissey's output. And similarly with the absence of wit , etc. in the track - that absence becomes a presence all of its own. The song shows, bluntly, a moment in time rather than an attempt at narrative retrospectively ... a snapshot ( albeit "unprepared" and hence, unstructured) rather than a short film ? Thus the unmitigated petulance/bile/spite/spleen adds a refreshing and striking variety - like a small desert in a vast landscape of oases ...


f***ing hell - it's like I can almost hear the goalposts being uprooted and shifted (to suit my point). Oh well , as the saying goes " It's not my doctoral dissertation - it's Morrissey.solo.com".

 

[Worm]

Spoiler alert - Quibbling follows


I'd argue it isn't at all analogous to the Hamlet comparison. Why ? I guess because it's likely that the song "UB" isn't heard in a vacuum. By the time we've listened to that song , odds are we've already made our way through the album to that point or , failing that, have at least heard other Smiths/Moz songs or ,even failing that, have some vague notion of Moz as articulate and biting in his lyrics.

The absence of back-story/follow-up in "UB" perhaps isn't that at all ; rather it's given, however indirectly, by the rest of the album or even by our previous understanding of Morrissey's output. And similarly with the absence of wit , etc. in the track - that absence becomes a presence all of its own. The song shows, bluntly, a moment in time rather than an attempt at narrative retrospectively ... a snapshot ( albeit "unprepared" and hence, unstructured) rather than a short film ? Thus the unmitigated petulance/bile/spite/spleen adds a refreshing and striking variety - like a small desert in a vast landscape of oases ...


f***ing hell - it's like I can almost hear the goalposts being uprooted and shifted (to suit my point). Oh well , as the saying goes " It's not my doctoral dissertation - it's Morrissey.solo.com".

Well done.

You haven't changed my mind, but you've made a very valid case for why "Unhappy Birthday" is a good song. I never, ever, argue with anyone cheeky enough to trot out the old "absence is presence" saw. Wonderful!

 

[123xyz]

Well done.

You haven't changed my mind, but you've made a very valid case for why "Unhappy Birthday" is a good song. I never, ever, argue with anyone cheeky enough to trot out the old "absence is presence" saw. Wonderful!

Damn you, Worm , you Moz-boffin ! You're meant to be hypnotised by the aesthetically arresting phrase - you can't just go around joining in the fun wily-nily !


I still don't feel I made my point as I might have but yes, I do feel better for having got all that off my chest... .

 

[Worm]

I do feel better for having got all that off my chest... .

It's important to do that. You know, someone posted a link to a YouTube video of Gavin Hopps, yesterday, and in it he said something which interested me. Hopps was explaining why he wrote his book, "The Pageant of His Bleeding Heart". He told the interviewer that he was inspired to write the book because most critics and fans, when praising Morrissey, would talk around the songs. They'd talk about his greatness in so many areas, but would only rarely comment on the songs themselves. By and large I think that's true, even for me. So I think it's good for fans to try and say exactly why they like the songs. In a discussion forum, that is. One should never talk about semiotics, gender politics, and the correct definition of camp whilst listening to Morrissey in a pub.

 

[Orson Swells]

In "Stop Me", the guy has fallen out of love with his girlfriend, but Morrissey tells his story in an interesting way, with lots of colorful details, and best of all it isn't ham-fisted and tone deaf.

I don't believe the gender of the other person is mentioned at all...

The absence of back-story/follow-up in "UB" perhaps isn't that at all ; rather it's given, however indirectly, by the rest of the album or even by our previous understanding of Morrissey's output. And similarly with the absence of wit , etc. in the track - that absence becomes a presence all of its own. The song shows, bluntly, a moment in time rather than an attempt at narrative retrospectively ... a snapshot ( albeit "unprepared" and hence, unstructured) rather than a short film ? Thus the unmitigated petulance/bile/spite/spleen adds a refreshing and striking variety - like a small desert in a vast landscape of oases ...

Yes, it's almost as if he means it...

In fact, you might argue that the blunter the lyric, the more he means it. In terms of titles, "I Know It's Over" is just as blunt as "I'm OK By Myself". Clearly they are two things he really wanted to say at the time. I think the ability of a pop lyric to be devastatingly direct is what Morrissey relishes about them. His songwriting journey in The Smiths is the breaking down of the the somewhat Sixth Form poetry approach of The Hand That Rocks The Cradle into a stream-lined, more bludgeonable form. And this, to the distress of some, is what he has continued to do in his solo work.

As for TQID vs S,HWC - I'm in the Strangeways compound.