failed to buy YOR at Walmart

[Not Right in the Head]

I think the problem is deeper than that. We used to have a large industrial manufacturing base that supported the middle class. Those jobs are now a thing of the past as "free trade" has decimated the American middle class. Basically, our standard of living has declined, and the rest of the world's has increased. We are now, predominantly, a service economy.

And?

Last time I checked, factory workers were never considered middle class--my family sure wasn't, when my mother assembled microwave ovens. Look around you. I assume that you're middle class yourself. Do you see fewer middle-class people around you? Have any of your peers slipped down the class ladder to a point where they'll be there permanently?

Our standard of living is still much higher than most of the rest of the world.

Additionally, even if we have a business climate that is amenable to innovation and change, do not believe for a second that as soon as the next big thing designed in the U.S. can be outsourced to India it won't be. The resulting impact on the "educated" American worker is their typical career now lasts 10 years, and it requires constant life long learning and re-education just to stay at the same standard of living. Vauxhall does not approve...

I honestly don't know about that. My job hasn't been outsourced (yet), and I think that lifelong learning is a good thing, for the most part--as long as your employer is helping you pay for it. 9 years ago I went back to school to get a degree that would further my career (as my first two degrees were worthless in that regard), and even though my employer offers tuition assistance, I haven't taken advantage of it (yet)--nor have I had to. I dunno.

The resulting "benefit" of all this is you can buy a $79 DVD player from Walmart. Yeppie!

Are you really saying that that's not a benefit?!?

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Are you really saying that that's not a benefit?!?

Yes, that's not a benefit. Things are too cheap. Wal-Mart precipitated the decline in our economy by selling us stuff at cheaper prices. In their lust to undercut all competitors, they forced manufacturing to China, where the workers are treated horribly, paid pennies an hour, and there are no environmental or labor laws. This removed jobs from our economy.

We would be better off if people had actual work to do, making things, not selling stuff or running reports and having meetings. Products should be much more expensive--we all have too much. Look at the way people live in Europe. They have tiny houses and apartments, they aren't renting storage units or packing basements full of shit they don't need or want. They also have a guarantee of a decent level of healthcare, education, and benefits if something goes wrong. They live on "less," by an American standard, but we live on too much.

So I'm glad Morrissey's not in Wal-Mart. He'd probably be proud of that fact, if he were aware of it.

 

[Vauxhall95]

And?

Last time I checked, factory workers were never considered middle class--my family sure wasn't, when my mother assembled microwave ovens. Look around you. I assume that you're middle class yourself. Do you see fewer middle-class people around you? Have any of your peers slipped down the class ladder to a point where they'll be there permanently?

Hey buddy! A debate! Okay, I believe working on the line in Detroit is a middle class job, yeah. I believe that timber jobs, steel mills, manufacturing jobs, all these jobs once supported a burgeoning middle class. The statistics are right there: Americans have to work more hours for less income then in the past. We are a service economy. I don't think I'm reaching here, this is a commonly held belief.

Our standard of living is still much higher than most of the rest of the world.

Yes, you are correct. My point is we have suffered while the rest of the world has gained. As an American, why would I want to support that? I know that sounds incredibly selfish, but I have my own family to support.

I honestly don't know about that. My job hasn't been outsourced (yet), and I think that lifelong learning is a good thing, for the most part--as long as your employer is helping you pay for it. 9 years ago I went back to school to get a degree that would further my career (as my first two degrees were worthless in that regard), and even though my employer offers tuition assistance, I haven't taken advantage of it (yet)--nor have I had to. I dunno.

I was "downsized" three time before I turned 30 years old. So, it very personal to me. Employer paid tuition is always the first thing cut in tough times. I agree, in principle, life long learning is a good thing, but what about spending time with your family? I want time to raise my kids. I haven't gone back to school (I have a 4 yr BA) because I don't want to miss out on their lives. We already spend more time at our jobs then with our families, must we really do more just to keep up with the economic conditions being imposed on us?

Are you really saying that that's not a benefit?!?

I'm not a typical American. I'm not a ravenous consumer. Yes, I think I spoil my kids, but my family doesn't live beyond our means. It is a benefit, but I believe the costs far outweigh those benefits. Look at the statistics: Nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007. That's disgraceful. If it means paying more for my DVD so my neighbor can see a doctor, than so be it.

 

[Not Right in the Head]

Yes, that's not a benefit. Things are too cheap. Wal-Mart precipitated the decline in our economy by selling us stuff at cheaper prices. In their lust to undercut all competitors, they forced manufacturing to China, where the workers are treated horribly, paid pennies an hour, and there are no environmental or labor laws. This removed jobs from our economy.

All in all, I'd say that the US made a pretty spectacular transition from manufacturing-based to service-based economy over the past 3 decades without a huge loss of jobs. Even now, when our unemployment rate is the highest it's been in decades, I don't see anyone blaming the Chinese for taking those jobs. Intriguingly, nobody's blaming the Indians anymore, either, for taking service-based jobs.

I completely agree that China's labor practices are appalling, but I also think it's preposterous to have such contempt for them or for the US companies that "forced" manufacturing to China. We here in the Western world did no better when we were going through the same phase, 150-50 years ago. If anything, the explosion of Chinese manufacturing is surely bound to force them to adopt better labor and environmental standards much, much more quickly than we ever did, simply because there's no way they'll survive without them.

Which big US manufacturers "forced" manufacturing to postwar Japan, or to Taiwan in the 70s & 80s?

We would be better off if people had actual work to do, making things, not selling stuff or running reports and having meetings. Products should be much more expensive--we all have too much. Look at the way people live in Europe. They have tiny houses and apartments, they aren't renting storage units or packing basements full of shit they don't need or want. They also have a guarantee of a decent level of healthcare, education, and benefits if something goes wrong. They live on "less," by an American standard, but we live on too much.

Are you offering to lead by example? Are you going to encourage your children to live on "less" and do "actual work"--work for which they may not even need something as pointless as a college degree to do? Start a "back-to-the-factory" movement!

So I'm glad Morrissey's not in Wal-Mart. He'd probably be proud of that fact, if he were aware of it.

I'm not even going to comment on this.

 

[Not Right in the Head]

I'm not a typical American. I'm not a ravenous consumer. Yes, I think I spoil my kids, but my family doesn't live beyond our means. It is a benefit, but I believe the costs far outweigh those benefits. Look at the statistics: Nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007. That's disgraceful. If it means paying more for my DVD so my neighbor can see a doctor, than so be it.

Paying more for a DVD won't make that happen. Nationalized healthcare (oops, sorry, a "single-payer system") will.

 

[Vauxhall95]

Yes, that's not a benefit. Things are too cheap. Wal-Mart precipitated the decline in our economy by selling us stuff at cheaper prices. In their lust to undercut all competitors, they forced manufacturing to China, where the workers are treated horribly, paid pennies an hour, and there are no environmental or labor laws. This removed jobs from our economy.

We would be better off if people had actual work to do, making things, not selling stuff or running reports and having meetings. Products should be much more expensive--we all have too much. Look at the way people live in Europe. They have tiny houses and apartments, they aren't renting storage units or packing basements full of shit they don't need or want. They also have a guarantee of a decent level of healthcare, education, and benefits if something goes wrong. They live on "less," by an American standard, but we live on too much.

So I'm glad Morrissey's not in Wal-Mart. He'd probably be proud of that fact, if he were aware of it.

Free trade is total bullshit when the outsourced country does not have the same labor and/or environmental standards we do. It is unfair to American workers who lost their jobs, and it is unfair to the workers in those countries. I know what this feels like first hand. I was injured on the job. It was a life altering injury, and I still live in pain today, 11 years after it happened. At the very least, I was able to get two back surgeries paid for and a small settlement; however, if I was doing the same job in: India, China, Mexico, etc. I'd be totally screwed for life.

I agree Pregs. We work jobs we hate to buy shit we don't need and then call it "freedom." If we weren't such voracious consumers, and actually went back to creating and manufacturing I think we as a society would be better for it.

 

[bored]

I agree Pregs. We work jobs we hate to buy shit we don't need and then call it "freedom." If we weren't such voracious consumers, and actually went back to creating and manufacturing I think we as a society would be better for it.

So are you saying you don't have freedom?

 

[Vauxhall95]

So are you saying you don't have freedom?

I was using the term loosely as a metaphor and for effect (guilty!)

I grew up in Saudi Arabia and lived there for ten years. I was given a front row seat to see what true oppression is. Yes, we have personal freedoms here in the U.S.

However, we are also a country of consummate consumers. We devour the earth's resources unlike any other society. We spend and live beyond our means. We have become slaves to shopping malls and this irrational compunction to consume, consume, consume...

That was the point I was trying to make. However, as you should all know by now, I have a penchant for hyperbole that is unmatched!

 

[bored]

I was using the term loosely as a metaphor and for effect (guilty!)

I grew up in Saudi Arabia and lived there for ten years. I was given a front row seat to see what true oppression is. Yes, we have personal freedoms here in the U.S.

However, we are also a country of consummate consumers. We devour the earth's resources unlike any other society. We spend and live beyond our means. We have become slaves to shopping malls and this irrational compunction to consume, consume, consume...

That was the point I was trying to make. However, as you should all know by now, I have a penchant for hyperbole that is unmatched!

All your points are valid.

I have a friend from the middle east and he grew up never buying anything on credit. If you didn't have the money, you didn't buy it.

I didn't realize you have seen a lifestyle Americans in general do not see.

We have the freedom to ask those with money to shackle us and make us their pawns.

Once we start having car payments and mortgage payments and credit card payments we end up locked in our jobs. That's the way it is for most people here.

I think we are born free and we trade it for something that we can have right now rather than save for something in the future that is more enduring.

 

[MrTheEdge]

niiice, i think i bought ROTT at walmart like three minutes after it went on sale, or maybe it was at walgreens, hmmmmmmmm

 

[jeniphir]

Sorry to bring the thread back on topic, but I just drove to my local Newbury Comics to find it closed/moving across the street!

ANNOYED!

--jeniphir