Who do you think comes close to Morrissey as a great lyricist?

[Quando quando quando]

You're just begging someone to point out that a lot of Morrissey's best lines are "borrowed."

But they are not.
He has just been stealing them and making them his own.
Twisting them more or less to his own likings.

Remember Oscar Wilde. " Talent borrows, genius steals.
If you borrow you have to pay interest.
If it was so obvious he was borrowing them he would have been accused a lot more for doing so.

As I said before, the influences that are noticeable are there on purpose.
As some kind of tribute to artists he likes.
For instance: In The Future When All Is Well. Tribute to Marc Bolan.
There are more off course.
He is not a copier.
Cheers CL

 

[Calamine Lotion]

But they are not.
He has just been stealing them and making them his own.
Twisting them more or less to his own likings.

Remember Oscar Wilde. " Talent borrows, genius steals.
If you borrow you have to pay interest.
If it was so obvious he was borrowing them he would have been accused a lot more for doing so.

As I said before, the influences that are noticeable are there on purpose.
As some kind of tribute to artists he likes.
For instance: In The Future When All Is Well. Tribute to Marc Nolan.
There are more off course.
He is not a copier.
Cheers CL

KS seems to be saying - one can never be totally sure - that anyone that came after Morrissey is somehow disqualified for being influenced by him, as if pop music should be divided into pre and post-Morrissey. She probably believes that anyway, but my post was pretty straightforward. Writing something like that doesn't just invite someone to post Morrissey's sources, it makes it almost impossible not to.

 

[Calamine Lotion]

 

[Quando quando quando]

KS seems to be saying - one can never be totally sure - that anyone that came after Morrissey is somehow disqualified for being influenced by him, as if pop music should be divided into pre and post-Morrissey. She probably believes that anyway, but my post was pretty straightforward. Writing something like that doesn't just invite someone to post Morrissey's sources, it makes it almost impossible not to.

I disagree with her about that.
It implies that anybody after Moz who is inspired by him must be disqualified.
How can you make such a prediction?

Maybe there can be an interesting artist who uses his inspiration and gives it his own twist?
To say he is the only one and the last in the dying days of pop music is dramatic and funny at the same time but not necessarily true, though, don't you think?
Cheers CL

 

[Quando quando quando]

in a way, yes. Well not all 'pop' music, but pretty much 'indie' or 'alternative' music. But not so much 'pre and post-Morrissey' but I think there could be seen a divide in pop music of pre and post-Smiths which would probably be closer to what I'm saying, a style that influences what comes after either directly or indirectly sometimes subtle sometimes not. Though also when I say 'pre and post-Smiths' on the surface 'Smiths' could represent a style that other bands at around the same time were also introducing,I mean that guitar sound or style,sometimes referred to as 'jangle pop' which was an influence from guitar bands from the mid to late 60's.

One could also say that about other genres of music, like, a pre and post-Afrika Bambaataa in hip hop, a pre and post-Kraftwerk in electronic music, or a pre and post-Charlie Parker divide in jazz,etc. Of course it is much more complex and rich in that it takes many sources /unique individuals and time to make a change in the evolution of a musical style that in turn each genre directly or indirectly influences the other.

Now I understand what you were saying. You don't dismiss anyone after Smiths and Morrissey for being more or less in the same musical genre.
Thanks for clearing that.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course it is much more complex and rich in that it takes many sources /unique individuals and time to make a change in the evolution of a musical style that in turn each genre directly or indirectly influences the other.

underlined for redundancy.

 

[Quando quando quando]

leonard cohen for sure. i dont understand why people are so impressed with lyrics though. i mean, obviously some people write better lyrics than others, but to go so far as to call some lyrics genius is a bit much. how hard can it be to write great lyrics? it seems to me that lyric writing would be the easiest kind of writing around. to say that someone who writes great lyrics is like a keats is patently absurd.

Keats and Yates are on YOUR side but Wilde is on mine.
Just kidding.
But Rifke, the comparison would only be worthwhile if we were able to hear the accompanying music of the great poets.
All other aspects of Morrissey, his voice, his background, his youth, his personality, his personae and his music are backing his lyricism and in doing so making it more unique and in my opinion stronger.
It is not the lyricism itself that makes it genius to me, although it does.

But I believe the chances that those lyrics would have been rated genius if he would have been some ordinary, mediocre bloke are none.
Cheers Rifke

 

[Quando quando quando]

Cohen did say he couldn't " find a decent rhyme for the word orange." Em did give it a shot though.

Well,, it depends on the word decent.
I do think you could start with something associative by the sound of the word orange.
Say " arrange ".
Maybe you could get in another line " juice "?
It's just a start, you have to begin somewhere, I suppose.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

Keats and Yates are on YOUR side but Wilde is on mine.
Just kidding.
But Rifke, the comparison would only be worthwhile if we were able to hear the accompanying music of the great poets.
All other aspects of Morrissey, his voice, his background, his youth, his personality, his personae and his music are backing his lyricism and in doing so making it more unique and in my opinion stronger.
It is not the lyricism itself that makes it genius to me, although it does.

But I believe the chances that those lyrics would have been rated genius if he would have been some ordinary, mediocre bloke are none.
Cheers Rifke

no, im quite sure oscar is on my side. in fact, ive always known. im pretty sure i knew him in a past life, even though i dont believe in past lives. but when i was little i used to always see his name on the spines of books in bookstores and there was this feeling of entranced familiarity that always came with it, like i had been enveloped by some warm perfumed wind of another world.
but ANYWAYS! i'm sure my otherworldly affiliations are of no interest to anyone here.
so yes, i agree with what you are saying: it is the sum total of morrissey as musician that makes him a genius. his lyrics may be brilliant, but you cant compare them to "ode to a nightingale", although if you can write decent lyrics and can sing well, ordinary people who cant tell the difference are all too happy to claim you to be the poet of your generation, while you sit back and let them. it's quite a coup, if you ask me.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

"You write songs?" Cohen said, in that bottomless voice. "Well, have you ever found a decent rhyme for the word 'orange'?" Before I could answer, Cohen said, "Neither have I. I've been down on my knees in my underwear at The Royalton Hotel, banging my head against the floor. All because I couldn't find a decent rhyme for the word orange."

well all im saying is if you cant find a word that rhymes with orange, find another word besides orange. or dont have them rhyme. who cares. they're just lyrics. and if there simply isnt a word that rhymes with orange, why beat yourself up over it. if only leonard had availed himself of the help of a rhyming dictionary the matter might've been put to rest before the ghastly scene of him on the floor in his underwear ensued.

 

[Anonymous]

of course you would say that... Neil.

Why, Patti, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. See you can, when you want to!

It must be our common love of horses.

 

[SeniorLife]

There probably are a lot of great lyricists out there, but what matters most (to me at least) is how do the words combine with the music? That, I believe, is what moves you, and makes someone's lyrics stand out.

That being said, while not a huge Pet Shop Boy fan, I can appreciate Neil Tennant's lyrics. At times, he can be equally, if not more witty than Morrissey.

Also, Thom Yorke, for me must be included. Although, I believe if you don't have any degree of mental illness, many of his lyrics will just seem like simple words on paper, but to the applicable audience, a lot of his lyrics make a ton of sense and hit home.

 

[bandrus1]

Blake Schwarzenbach

 

[Uncleskinny]

Neil Hannon

 

[Anonymous]

Blake was good and I still like kiss the bottle but he went down fast IMO after jawbreaker

I think the guys behind jedi mind tricks uncommon valor wrote some great lyrics. That song amazes me. Eminem for sure is very very good as is Aesop rock

 

[Anonymous]

But would not compare them or say they are as great as M's writing because they are very very different in approach and style from M and from each other. Though I will say its some of the best and most interesting of song lyric writing (as far as I know) today.


rated and underlined for redundancy.

 

[Anonymous]

redundant. deja vu all over again.
rated

 

[Quando quando quando]

It's difficult for me to put into words, but for me to compare a writer to M's writing, I would have to think of someone who writes in the style of M. And then I would have to give credit where credit is due. Which doesn't disqualify the new writers talents or originality, but one must keep in mind their probable influences (one most likely being M) and one must not forget those who have gone before, clearing the path so others who come after have an easier go of it, or a more difficult go of it if a writer has set their standards high enough to try and reach or surpass the achievements of those who have gone before.

Another example. I can't think of many good song writers these days, I try to keep an open ear, but I'm usually disappointed with what I hear. My two favorite lyricists of late are Scott Walker and Stefan Burnett of Death Grips.
But would not compare them or say they are as great as M's writing because they are very very different in approach and style from M and from each other. Though I will say its some of the best and most interesting of song lyric writing (as far as I know) today.

But in the end... subjective.

Off course it is.
Thank you so much for explaining.
I think I understand your criteria.
Agree totally on Scott Walker. By the way: Fantastic voice!
Don't know Stefan Burnett and Death Grips.
Will listen to them, thanks for the tip!

The only thing that is a bit contradictory, is, you say it can only be somebody or a band that eventually, in hindsight, is more or less in the same vain as Moz.
Maybe you expect it to be like that?

There is still a possibility that you might be surprised by something new, as in not known yet, for you?
You can't block that, or can you?
As you said that you like other lyricists as well.
I am still just a little bit like a child who wants to be surprised by " something, anything ".
Cheers KS

 

[Anonymous]

Hmm...Morrissey is definitely the best, but I adore Pete Doherty and his lyrics are quite poetic. They do speak to me.

Tim Booth is great and so is Damon Albarn.

Good question!

k

Jesus Christ you are barrow

Try David Bowie , Ray Davis , Bryon Ferry , Leonard Cohen , Patti smith , Lou reed , chuck D , john lydon , mark e smith , joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan , Jim Morrison. I could go on and on. Morrissey hasn't been any good for 30 years, in terms of a lyric writer .

The only people who think Morrissey is "The best " are fags and hipsters

 

[nicky wire's legs]

Biebs you are a ............

i propose we figure out all the people who he's giving good ratings too, and for each negative rating he gives us, give one to each of them too. you know, just to even things out. and if they have a problem with it, they can blame "biebs". you probably wont do it, you're too nice. but i just might.