Cloth Ears Of Refusal?

[Mr Reynolds]

I hadn't listened to 'Years Of Refusal' for quite a few eons and happened to stick it on last night - is it just my cloth ears or is it a very messy overall sound? There seemed to be distortion and break up on certain sounds (like the toms on 'Skull') and very bad unclear seperation generally. Does anyone with ears that hear agree? Was it a production decision to 'sound lower-fi' or more 'garage' or something in the mix? Its an irony that the recent(ish) unearthed Troy Tate recordings (from a cassette!) sound significantly cleaner than 'Refusal'.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

I hadn't listened to 'Years Of Refusal' for quite a few eons and happened to stick it on last night - is it just my cloth ears or is it a very messy overall sound? There seemed to be distortion and break up on certain sounds (like the toms on 'Skull') and very bad unclear seperation generally. Does anyone with ears that hear agree? Was it a production decision to 'sound lower-fi' or more 'garage' or something in the mix? Its an irony that the recent(ish) unearthed Troy Tate recordings (from a cassette!) sound significantly cleaner than 'Refusal'.

Quote from Roger Manning:

"I've spent over six weeks recording with Morrissey and his incredible band for what will hopefully become his latest solo effort later this year. Producer Jerry Finn and I have had a long fun filled history together in Punk Pop heaven with groups like blink-182 and found ourselves both being invited back for our second Morrissey album. I think fans will be pleasantly surprised by this new solo offering. It was all tracked live which added a great punk, garage, DIY urgency to the tracks. I am so used to recording keyboards in the more traditional overdub scenario that being asked to invent parts "on the fly" and track with the band while Morrissey sang live was a very refreshing and challenging experience."

Of course, I don't believe the album (specifically Morrissey's vocals) was recorded live for one second...

 

[Mr Reynolds]

Thanks for that Viva, very informative.

I don't like it. I think it ended up sounding like a kind of halfway house - neither fish nor flesh. Regardless of how it was recorded it still doesn't sound particularly well mixed or indeed mastered. I prefer the 'live' versions recorded from soundboards on tour. Great album though (song-wise).

 

[Road Hog]

YOR is a magnificent record. The opening songs leave one breathless.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

YOR is a magnificent record. The opening songs leave one breathless.

That's probably because the listener hears how bad the lyrics and lead guitar are and feels a sense of betrayal that is only comparable to multiple strikes to the genitalia...

 

[Road Hog]

That's probably because the listener hears how bad the lyrics and lead guitar are and feels a sense of betrayal that is only comparable to multiple strikes to the genitalia...

Cruel... cruel but fair.

It's not that bad, is it?

Personally I think it works in a kind of 'American surfer rock band playing with iconic British indie rock hero' kind of way. No?

 

[bored]

One of my favourites. I understand the brash tone musically might not be for some people but that's what I like about the album.

My biggest disappointment is at the end of Black Cloud where Jeff Beck has a good solo going on he gets cut short. Not all the songs are great but there are quite a few that I like and Carol is one of my favourite solo works.

 

[Skylarker]

It's a shit album. Weak songwriting, and the few exceptions are totally pissed all over by the recording and production. I've never been able to fully absorb it.

By far the worst song on it is I'm OK By Myself...it sounds like the title of some hideous women's liberation manifesto. Some of the lyrics start to go somewhere good (the arm around my waist/hand contains a knife type of couplets) but it all falls apart and the musical performance contains all the finesse and melodic structure of a third-grade elementary school band recital.

On the other hand Skull, Mama, Paris, Carol, and You Were Good In Your Time are all really good songs. Still badly recorded though.

 

[joe frady]

I hadn't listened to 'Years Of Refusal' for quite a few eons and happened to stick it on last night - is it just my cloth ears or is it a very messy overall sound? There seemed to be distortion and break up on certain sounds (like the toms on 'Skull') and very bad unclear seperation generally. Does anyone with ears that hear agree? Was it a production decision to 'sound lower-fi' or more 'garage' or something in the mix? Its an irony that the recent(ish) unearthed Troy Tate recordings (from a cassette!) sound significantly cleaner than 'Refusal'.

If I said I wholeheartedly concur, would you slip us another one of yer rarities?

As it happens I love 'Years Of Refusal', songs and sound, but I'll agree with anything for another nugget from the Reynolds' Vault...

 

[MozIsGod]

I hadn't listened to 'Years Of Refusal' for quite a few eons and happened to stick it on last night - is it just my cloth ears or is it a very messy overall sound? There seemed to be distortion and break up on certain sounds (like the toms on 'Skull') and very bad unclear seperation generally. Does anyone with ears that hear agree?

It's not your cloth ears, Mr. Reynolds. Years of Refusal is a poorly produced, mixed, and mastered album and anybody with a set of ears can hear it. It's a fatiguing listening experience and this has nothing to do with the loud, more aggressive sound on that album. Southpaw Grammar is similar in style and you can blast that one into oblivion without it grating on you. It doesn't help that the mastering engineer for Refusal, Bill Inglot, leans towards a treble-heavy approach towards mastering so it's a bit over the top in the high end. But it's been rightfully criticized by many, here's some interesting threads.

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/116019-Years-of-Refusal-CD-vs-LP
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=170966&page=5

Was it a production decision to 'sound lower-fi' or more 'garage' or something in the mix? Its an irony that the recent(ish) unearthed Troy Tate recordings (from a cassette!) sound significantly cleaner than 'Refusal'.

Well Years of Refusal was recorded in an era where LOUD is the name of the game. The Loudness Wars isn't over yet but more artists are becoming educated about nasty over-compression and how it makes your music sound flat and lifeless, not better. So a cassette from the 1980's sounding better than something released during the past few years doesn't surprise me one bit.

 

[MozIsGod]

One of my favourites. I understand the brash tone musically might not be for some people but that's what I like about the album.

I do too, but the OP is actually criticising the technical aspects of the recording rather than the musical quality.

 

[Road Hog]

It's a shit album. Weak songwriting, and the few exceptions are totally pissed all over by the recording and production. I've never been able to fully absorb it.

By far the worst song on it is I'm OK By Myself...it sounds like the title of some hideous women's liberation manifesto. Some of the lyrics start to go somewhere good (the arm around my waist/hand contains a knife type of couplets) but it all falls apart and the musical performance contains all the finesse and melodic structure of a third-grade elementary school band recital.

On the other hand Skull, Mama, Paris, Carol, and You Were Good In Your Time are all really good songs. Still badly recorded though.

Agreed wrt OK By. That is Morrissey scraping the very bottom of the barrel. The lyrical couplets you refer to as 'going somewhere good' are to me the lowest point of the album. Entirely predictable, lyrically and musically. It's worse than anything on Maladjusted. Well, excluding Roy's Keen.

Agreed with your choice of good songs, though Birthday should obviously be on that list too.

Overall it's half of a great album and half of a very average album. But isn't that about as good as it gets? How often do you hear an album that's great from start to finish?

 

[Fulham Road Lights]

'American surfer rock band playing with iconic British indie rock hero' kind of way.

That is a great way of describing the album! Trouble is, I can't imagine that formula ever working, and it certainly didn't with YOR.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Personally I think it works in a kind of 'American surfer rock band playing with iconic British indie rock hero' kind of way. No?

No, it sounds nothing like surf rock...Morrissey's current band couldn't pull off surf rock any better than their poor attempts at rockabilly.

 

[MozIsGod]

Quote from Roger Manning:

"I've spent over six weeks recording with Morrissey and his incredible band for what will hopefully become his latest solo effort later this year. Producer Jerry Finn and I have had a long fun filled history together in Punk Pop heaven with groups like blink-182 and found ourselves both being invited back for our second Morrissey album. I think fans will be pleasantly surprised by this new solo offering. It was all tracked live which added a great punk, garage, DIY urgency to the tracks. I am so used to recording keyboards in the more traditional overdub scenario that being asked to invent parts "on the fly" and track with the band while Morrissey sang live was a very refreshing and challenging experience."

Of course, I don't believe the album (specifically Morrissey's vocals) was recorded live for one second...

Viva, do you know why Mikey left the band prior to the recording of Refusal? A lot of the songs sure could have used him on them, especially One Day Goodbye Will Be Farewell which seemed so promising during the Greatest Hits tour but eventually fell flat on record.

Also, Mikey helped record "Children in Pieces" and "My Dearest Love" in 2007. Was this during the Refusal sessions or was it recorded separately during the GH tour? Mikey isn't listed as a player on the "That's How People Grow Up" sleeve is he? I know that song was specifically stated as being recorded in Houston, but I don't remember when.

Sorry if these questions seemed random, but you always seem to know so much about certain recording sessions and the players.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Viva, do you know why Mikey left the band prior to the recording of Refusal? A lot of the songs sure could have used him on them, especially One Day Goodbye Will Be Farewell which seemed so promising during the Greatest Hits tour but eventually fell flat on record.

Also, Mikey helped record "Children in Pieces" and "My Dearest Love" in 2007. Was this during the Refusal sessions or was it recorded separately during the GH tour? Mikey isn't listed as a player on the "That's How People Grow Up" sleeve is he? I know that song was specifically stated as being recorded in Houston, but I don't remember when.

Sorry if these questions seemed random, but you always seem to know so much about certain recording sessions and the players.

The given reason Mikey left the band: he wanted to spend time with his family.
The real reason: money.

"CiP" and "MDL" were both pre-Refusal sessions and were originally produced by Santaolalla...when the Refusal sessions started, additional production was added to these tracks by Finn. Correct, as far as I can recall, Mikey is NOT mentioned on the 'THPGU' single...then again, if I recall, none of the band are except Kristeen Young who is listed as "Additional Voice". The track was recorded in Houston on May 28th after the concert of that night. In the archives you can find a story submitted by one of the studio techs describing this session. Curiously, at the time, drummer Matt Walker on his blog mentioned that an addition song titled "The Longer I Live" was recorded during this session. However, the song reference in the blog has since been removed and Boz denies ever knowing of the song's existence.

Anyway, sorry I rambled on...I like talking about these things.

 

[MozIsGod]

Anyway, sorry I rambled on...I like talking about these things.

Thanks Viva! I just checked out that article with the studio techs, pretty interesting stuff. I was never sure about that one, so it looks like Mikey did play on it but isn't credited in the Refusal liner notes.

I still remember a blog entry regarding Alain Whyte in April '07 which stated he was borrowing guitars for some "future" LA sessions with Morrissey. Don't know what those were since he isn't credited for playing on anything during the GH/Refusal period, just the songwriting.

Thanks again for all the info!

 

[Raphael Lambach]

I really do love Years Of Refusal. It's one of most perfect Morrissey's work. Of course several people don't like it just 'cos it contains a massive Tobias' contribution in writing songs and few Boorer's. In my opinion it just proves that Morrissey gets along with Alain Whyte very well. (I like Whyte but I think Jesse is always able to deal great tunes).
On contrary of You are the quarry or Vauxhall & I, Years of Refusal is havier and has less keyboards.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Thanks Viva! I just checked out that article with the studio techs, pretty interesting stuff. I was never sure about that one, so it looks like Mikey did play on it but isn't credited in the Refusal liner notes.

I still remember a blog entry regarding Alain Whyte in April '07 which stated he was borrowing guitars for some "future" LA sessions with Morrissey. Don't know what those were since he isn't credited for playing on anything during the GH/Refusal period, just the songwriting.

Thanks again for all the info!

You're very welcome.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a dig at him because the liner notes clearly state Roger Manning on piano and keyboards in a way for those who don't know better to assume he plays on EVERY song. Also, another curious factoid is the fact that the liner notes tries to lead you to believe that EVERY track on the album was recorded in LA at Conway Studios...which, as we all know, isn't the case.

Regarding Alain, word on the street is the reason he is no longer contributing new songs to Morrissey is because he showed up uninvited for the Refusal sessions to play on his songs and was turned away! Boz had to give him the news in the studio parking lot! I know people don't like to read much into these things, but if you play guitar for Morrissey and you list Morrissey and The Smiths as being amongst your favorite bands and have them on your friend's list on Myspace for literally years and then one day, remove all references to them other than your past work with them, it is safe to assume there is some falling out.

 

[Razorblade]

Very funny - as you know I don't think much of that album either!